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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF SEYCHELLES
Friday 13th September, 2019
The Assembly met at 9am
National Anthem
Moment of Reflection
Mr Speaker in the Chair
MR SPEAKER
Bonzour tou Manm Onorab, bonzour tou dimoun ki a lekout, e ki pe kontinyen swiv sa travay ki Lasanble Nasyonal in antre ladan depi Mardi.
Nou pou kontinyen ozordi avek nou bann deliberasyon entervansyon lo bann diferan lartik Kod Sivil, e pandan lazournen nou ava regarde. E parey yer nou’n deside ki mannyer nou pou pran nou travay semenn prosenn. E si i annan Okenn sanzman dan lazournen nou ava kapab fer bann Manm konnen.
Avek sa mon ava demann Parliamentary Reporter pou fer rantre nou panel, pou nou kapab kontinyen.
Mon ava dir bonzour Minister Jean-Paul Adam avek son panel akonpannyen Professor Angelo e osi Mr Victor Pool reprezantan AG’s Office e osi Mr Marthy Vidot ki personal assistant to the Minister.
Minister once again good morning and welcome to the National Assembly, for the continuation of debates and intervention on the Civil Code.
Nou ava toudswit kontinyen kot nou ti’n arete yer. E mon ava pas laparol avek Onorab Bernard Georges, konman Chair Bills Committee pou gid nou. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Bonzour. Mersi Mr Chair, bonzour Minis, bonzour tou bann koleg dan Lasanble, Profeser, ek legal draftsperson, tou bann dimoun ki pe swiv nou dan lakour.
Mr Chair avan ki nou al lo nou nouvo seksyon, ti annan 2 seksyon yer ki nou ti’n skip, akoz nou ti pou regard ladan. E mon kapab konfirmen ki nou’n ganny, ganny loportinite pou fer sa, e nou’n trouv en solisyon ki pa fer okenn defo ek sa ki egziste aktyelman.
Mon krwar sete 240 ek 241 ek 242 si mon pa tronpe, wi, pardon 240 ek 241. E panel i annan en propozisyon ki pou ki nou pou amann 240 pou fer li rantre anliny avek aktyel. E nou kapab zet 241 ki nepli valab.
Annefe menm depi dan lepok kot Konstitisyon ti pe ganny revwar – pa Konstitisyon Civil Code ti pe ganny revwar par Civil Code Revision Committee, personn pa ti konpran lartik 241 e nou still – nou still pa konpran. E i pa’n, i pa’n zanmen ganny aplike otan ki nou kapab konnen dan sa 200 ekek lannen, depi ki’n nou Kod isi Sesel.
Alor se pou sa rezon ki dan lentere modernizasyon, nou pe propoze fer lamannman avek 240 ki ava fer ki 241 pa pou pa pou neseser. Panel i ava i annan sa text.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Eske panel? Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you Chair. Good morning Members. This matter was discussed yesterday and as the Honorable Georges said we have a proposal which we think meets the needs and resolves the problems.
The existing Law in articles 197 – 200, mostly relate to the situation of legitimacy and illegitimacy, which depended on a valid marriage. Given the stages of children is equal now, many of those provisions fail.
And that leaves us in those in the Bill with articles 240 and 241. As Honorable Georges has said, it is not clear, now what would be the relevance of article 241. The suggestion and this we hope meets the concerns of the Honorable Pillay, is for redraft of article 240, to make it clear that 240 compliments 238. In other words in life the spouses can challenge or have corrected the status of the marriage on the grounds of nullity, and in 240 will address the question where one or both of the spouses is dead.
The proposed language is that if the spouses or one of them, have died and a question concerning the validity of their marriage arises, proceedings maybe instituted by the Attorney General or any interested party. That I believe meets the concern about parent contradiction in article 240. And the proposal is, that article 241 be removed, as now is inappropriate to the circumstances given the removal of the earlier provisions which reflected legitimacy and illegitimacy. Thank you Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Any comments on, on the amended article 240? 241 is gone now – it’s been removed. 240 on the wording? Non? Ok if there are no comments, then we are- Yes Honorable Ramkalawan.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Good morning Mr Speaker, in your capacity as Chairman.
Good morning all Members in the Assembly, and Minister together with the panel.
Mr Chair, I follow what what Professor has just said, and when I look at the present Civil Code, it talks about the fraud. Recognizing that the declarations of nullity was a fraud. And this is why Attorney General, if it concerns the Government, if regarding the estate, if it concerns the Governments, then it’s the Attorney General who will proceed – institute a case. And if it’s another interested part, then that interested party can do so. It is clear.
But at the same time the present Civil Code, brings in the officer of the Civil Status, in article 200. It’s basically a repetition of 199, but except that, it’s the Civil Status officer. The question that I want to ask is why are we removing the Civil Status officer completely in the proposed amendment? In the proposed amendment we are not bringing in the Civil Status officer, who basically celebrated the marriage, because in cases of annulment there is a prescription. The prescription period, is 12 months.
So this is why the present Civil Code, I guess brings in the Civil Status officer. Because it’s assumed that the Civil Status officer, would still be alive, and therefore article 200 makes provision in the case that the officer who celebrated the marriage is dead. Therefore he would not be able to be a witness. Because he is the one who should have satisfied himself that, the marriage was ok, and he would have been a witness to say, ‘’No. What is being declared is not true. These things were revealed in my presence and therefore-‘’
So should we not – should we not in the proposed amendment, include the Civil Status officer, because I think the Civil Status officer plays the very important role there.
The one who celebrated the marriage can be a very strong witness, and of course he or she will be able to help clarify mattes. Because 240 and 241 in the present one, as they are as they are as they definitely should be talking about the fraud. It’s a fraud that has been committed. And the fraud has led to the declaration of nullity. And this is what is being challenged and this gives this will, then allow for a case by the Attorney General, or if the state is being is the state is being robbed or by an interested party, if that interested party is being affected.
I hope, I make sense and the Professor – can Honorable Georges can or Mr Pool of course can -? Because I think the role of the Civil Status officer who celebrated the marriage, should be included in that amendment. Thank you very much, Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Honorable. Honorable Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair in fact it was, it was with this in mind, I think that we redrafted 240, which allows now, whether or not when one of the parties is dead, whether or not the Civil Status is alive or dead, it doesn’t matter either way, and irrespective of what the nullity was; whether it was fraud or not, it allows an interested party or the Attorney General to bring a case.
So we’ve widen date to cover both situation. So that when the Civil Status officer is still alive, he will of course be the principle witness, to the nullity; if it was a nullity that was perpetrated at that time of the marriage. In another words there was no consent or there was duress or whatever.
But if it was a nullity that was not necessarily perpetrated then, person was pregnant by somebody else then there will be no need to call the Civil Status officer as a witness.
So I think the draft that Professor has read, was intended to cover both situation which then rendered to 41 OTOs.
MR SPEAKER
Ok. agree. Yes. Professor can you can you read the amended 240 please? Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Yes Mr Chairman. The amendment would read as follows: ‘’If the spouses or one of them have died, and a question concerning the validity of their marriage arises, proceedings may be instituted by the Attorney General or any interested party.’’ Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Ok.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Mr Chairman sorry but it’s difficult when you are not a lawyer, and you are trying to make sense of an amendment. I mean if we have had the text in front of us it would been have been easier, but I would ask that it be read a third time. Thank you very much. Just like the banns of marriage.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Honorable. Professor, please.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Yes Mr Chairman. I will read it, but the point of clarification, first, I believe that the fraud that referred to is the fraud in getting registered as ‘’married,’’ not a fraud in having got an order for nullity. It’s a fraud of having got on the register as married. The text and it’s by substantially on what is there. If the spouses or one of them have died, and a question concerning the validity of their marriage arises, proceedings may be instituted by the Attorney General or any interested party. That is the proposal. Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Maybe Honorable Georges can -? Ok if you’ve got the text Honorable Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon’n sey met sa anler lo Board, pou ki nou kapab swiv li.
If spouse or one of them has died and the question concerning the validity of the marriage arises proceedings concerning, sorry, proceedings may be instituted by the Attorney General or any interested person. Mon krwar se sa.
MR SPEAKER
Yes.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
The question is what is the validity of the marriage here? It’s obviously a validity of the marriage, whether it’s a nullity or not. Akoz i tonm anba – it falls under the section of nullity. So.
Validity, we’ve kept validity because the current word is valid. Which is the one that we are having a discussion about yesterday. It’s to determine the validity or invalidity. And because, it comes under the section of nullity, it would be limited to validity or invalidity whether annul or not.
That’s the way I read it. And I think that this draft allows for any of the possible scenarios that we currently can consider under the 240 or 241.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Honorable Georges. Honorable Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Thank you Mr Chairman, good morning, and good morning everyone.
I think what’s important here for us to consider is the fact that our attempt that at clarifying or taking proceeding against nullity, was to get the marriage declared valid.
So the whole point now is about the validity not the nullity. Whether it was annul before one of them died or whether it was valid. It would become irelevant, because you’ve now covered both aspects of it.
Whether there was a nullity – whether there is an invalidity, in the essence that the marriage should not have been registered, in the first place. It could cover both instance; the pre which is registering, and the nullity which should be after.
So it covers both; both aspects of it. Before the way it was worded, it was just that the nullity has already happened, but now somebody is going to challenge the nullity.
So the marriage it’s already annulled, so why would you challenge the nullity? So now it makes it clearer, but it open it’s wider, for both instances. Whether you’ve registered it as a fraud. In registering it, it was a fraud, meaning you went to the officer and you ask them to register the marriage, when you were not actually married. Or you got married, got registered properly, but then discovered that the marriage should have been annulled. So it covers both aspects of it.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Honorable. Are we in a position to take a vote then? On section covering nullity of marriage article 238 to 243?
Tou Manm ki i an faver pou sa seksyon, nullity of marriage lartik 238 ziska 243? Okenn Manm ki kont? Madam Clerk.
MADAM CLERK
Mersi Mr Chair. Bonzour Mr Chair. Bonzour tou Manm. Mon’n rikord 17 Manm ki’n vot an faver e personn kont. Mersi Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi. Savedir nou’n Lasanble Nasyonal in aprouv bann lartik anba nullity of marriage. Yes Onorab Ferrari.
HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI
Just to ask panel and put on notice the Members that we will be raising this issue again in the cooling-off period, for just to get the clarity.
So it’s just to note we didn’t take part of this vote because we believe that we have more.
(Interruption)
MR SPEAKER
The Assembly, has voted with a majority to approve the article as amended. We can revisit, but you cannot change the decision of the Assembly that has already been taken.
HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI
Yes, but that’s the point I’m making. The point I’m making is we can ask for the clarity, for explanations. And I am assure if we see further explanations, we won’t go. We won’t keep a bad thing because we just voted for it today. We have to find a way to move on with that. So thank you for that Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you. Onorab Georges nou ava bouze.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair eski mon – at the risk of flogging a horse, sa ki nou pe sa ki nou devret pe fer se konpar sa ki nou fek fer la, avek the exact -the existing Code, which is 199 200 e non pa avek 240 ek 241. Akoz se 240 ek 241 – ki en problenm. 199 ek 200 i limite; i limit en aksyon ler en frod in ganny dekouver in criminal proceedings. Setadir sa zofisye Leta Sivil in ganny anmenn Ankour, akoz in anrezistre en maryaz, kekfwa in ganny peye, ki i pa ti’n devret anrezistre. E dan sa prosekisyon sa frod in ganny dekouver. Alor 199 ek 200 i kick-in.
Sa ki nou pe fer sa ki nou’n fer selon mwan i gard sa. Sa i en posibilite. Me i pa limit li through this sa.
I les okenn dimoun, pou okenn rezon, ler i annan en dimoun ki’n mor vin Ankour, pou sey etablir si sa maryaz i valid oubyen si i pa valid.
Donk that’s the issue pou nou refleksyon la e dan cooling-off period pli tar.
MR SPEAKER
Nou ava kontinyen Onorab.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Yes mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair la nou al lo lartik 258, si mon pa tronpe, e nou pe konmans en seksyon ki nouvo e enportan. E sa i annan pou fer avek repartisyon byen, ant sa koup ler zot maryaz i ariv a lafen.
E sa se sa se leta aktyel. Sa ki pe ganny fer dan 258 i sa, non selman pe re konsolid sa pozisyon e pe sanz li, me pe osi pe extend li to bann koup ki an menaz.
Alor i annan de i annan de keksoz la ki pe ganny fer. Enn – se en sanzman pou tou lede kote, e sa se sanzman 7an ki mon ava vin lo la dan en minit, e lot se extend li pou an menaz.
Mon krwar, Mr Chair pou nou kapab vwar sa vwar sa sanzman dan son konteks, permet mwan fer enn pti revi istorik, lo ki mannyer nou’n ariv la. Akoz sa semen, sa parkour i en parkour tre enteresan, e non pa zis pou, pou bann avoka me en parkour enteresan mon krwar istorik pou nou, pou nou pou striktir nou pei.
Nou Lalwa isi Sesel i enspire lo Lalwa Français ek Lalwa Anglais.
E parey, parey nou’n dir Kod Sivil i plito enspire par Lalwa Français Kod Napoleon. Me serten bann keksoz ki nou’n vwar la par egzanp anrezistreman maryaz, anrezistreman nesans, divors nullity, tousala se lenspirasyon Anglais ki’n ganny grefe lo en Lalwa Sivil ki pli zou mwen Français.
E sa e sa keksoz parey mon ti dir yer oubyen avan yer, i egziste dan 5 teritwar 5 ziridiksyon dan lemonn, Sesel, Maurice, Saint Lucia, Louisiana an Amerique e Quebec Canada pou menm rezon, zot tou zot annan Kod Sivil apre pli tar zot in vin Koloni Anglais. E Kod Sivil pa’n disparet, Lalwa Anglais in vin ganny grefe lo la.
E sa in ganny apele en par Profeser Chloros, ki ti premye premye dimoun pou servi sa term i ti apel sa en mix jurisdiction e dan son liv ki akonpanny ki in fer an 1975 in apel sa codification in a mix jurisdiction.
Sa mo in ganny re enterprete resaman par 2enm gran travay ki’n ganny fer lo sa melanz Lalwa, e sa in ganny fer par madanm Dr Mrs Mathilda Twomey ki Sef Ziz konmela ki’n ekrir son tez lo la. E li i apel sa pa en mix jurisdiction, me in apel sa en ibridizasyon en metisaz Lalwa.
E enn sa bann keksoz ki nou pe al fer la set en legzanp ekselan sa metisaz. Sa mixity sa ibridizasyon ek Lalwa Anglais. Sa i egziste dan lezot Lalwa i pa zis dan Kod Sivil par egzanp mon kapab dir ki dan Kod prosedir Sivil i annan serten lartik ladan serten seksyon ki enspire avek Lalwa Anglais e i annan serten ki enspire avek Lalwa Français. E bann avoka nou bezwen kontinyelman fer sa, nou bezwen nou ase vag ant sa de gran prensip Lalwa.
E nou bezwen modifye zot pou koresponn a nou bezwen. Dan Lalwa Français parey nou ti vwar yer, napa en konsep matrimonial property ; pa egziste.
Dan Lalwa Français er ou marye ou bezwen pran en desizyon eski ou pou marye an kominote de byen oubyen ou pou marye an separasyon de byen ? Sa i arive an France. E i arive Maurice par egzanp. E i arive isi. Sof ki i annan en provizyon ki en ki nou apel en default provision. E isi Sesel default provisions se separasyon de byen, si ou pa dir deklare ler ou marye anba ki rezim ou pou ale oubyen ki ou pa fer en Kontra maryaz, ou ganny ou marye anba doktrin separasyon de byen.
La France ek Maurice ler ou’n marye e ou’n swazir enn sa bann enn sa de rezim, akoz se en rezim matrimonyal, Lawa pou aplik sa rezim ler ou divorse. Ipso facto donk si ou marye anba separasyon de byen, sa ki anrezistre lo msye i reste pou msye, sa ki anrezistre lo madanm i reste pou madanm. Lalwa pa kapab enterfer, bezwen aksepte sa rezim ki ou’n deside for good or bad zour marye.
Dan Lalwa Anglais napa konsep rezim matrimonyal. Ou marye, ou marye. Ler ou divorse Lalwa i deside anba serten prensip ki’n ganny etablir anba Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 ki mannyer pou diviz propriyete.
E menm L’Angeterre menm dan kad Anglais pa toultan ki ti annan en Lalwa ki ti permet Ziz deside.
Laba osi ziska dan bann lannen ‘ 70 sa ki ti’n anrezistre lo msye ti pou msye, sa ki ti’n anrezistre lo madanm ti pou madanm.
Me anba lenfliyans en Ziz Anglais ki apel Lord Denning i ti vwar ki sa ti mal, akoz annan de fwa en koup in viv ansanm pandan en long peryod letan, sa enn ki son non pa lo lavant later, in kontribye dan enn an trwa fason ki nou ava vwar. In kontribye, me ler i ariv divors ou pa kapab donn li en par. Akoz propriyete pa anrezistre lo son non.
E donk sa Ziz in dir sa i mal e in evant en konsep ki apel the Deserted Wife’s Equity, akoz i ti plito bann madanm ki zot non pa ti lo rezis later, e in donn donk bann madanm ler i ariv en divors, en par in servi en konsep trust – Constructive trust – Resulting trust pou li donn sa madanm en par.
Isi Sesel nou pa’n fer sa, e akoz nou ti ankor anba sistenm Français si ou’n marye an separasyon de byen ki ti provizyon default depi lannen 1947 ler Status Of Married Women Act ti ganny entrodwir ler divors i arive, sa ki pou msye i reste pou msye, sa ki pou madanm i reste pou madanm.
An 1981 nou Lord Denning isi Sesel Ziz Sauzier, in dir ki sa pa byen. E in swiv sistenm Anglais ler i annan en divors ou bezwen regard kontribisyon ki’n ganny fer. E ou bezwen kapab donn en par sanz lanrezistreman, donn sa madanm sa ki pou li, donn sa msye sa ki pou li. E ou fer sa lo enn a 3 baz. Ou plito lo enn ou plizyer a 3 baz.
Swa in annan en kontribisyon direk. Let’s take an example – lakaz i lo non msye, me madanm in kontribye, in donn en bout larzan ki i ti annan savings pou aste sa lakaz. Oubyen later i lo non msye, me ler ou pran loan, se madanm ki’n peye. Sa set en kontribisyon direk. Donk lo labaz en kontribisyon direk, Lakour ti dir nou kapab sanz lanrezistreman later e donn sakenn en par.
2enm fason se ler kontribisyon i endirek. Sa madanm li i pa’n kontribye li; in cash. I pa’n pey loan – i pa’n donn en bout larzan. Me in kontribye in-kind. In ede pou transpor materyo. In ede pou penn lakaz. In ede pou fer sa bann keksoz koumsa. Alor sa osi i kapab ganny en par.
E 3enm fason se ki i sa madanm se pa’n ni – i kapab mars pou zonm oubyen fanm, mon pe zis pran en legzanp ki tou keksoz i lo non zonm.
Sa madanm li i pa’n kontribye direkteman e i pa’n ni kontribye endirekteman, me sa maryaz in subsister pou en long peryod; pou en peryod kot sa madanm li, in kwi manze, in netway lakaz in lave, in drese, pou permet son mari al travay e pey sa bann keksoz.
E sa osi i donn li en par. E sa par i kapab from en poursan depann lo son kontribisyon dan enn sa bann 3 fason, oubyen dan plizyer sa bann 3 fason ziska 50poursan. E si e Lakour ti dir Ziz Sauzier ti dir dan en 2enm case pli tar, prensip equality is equity. Si ou pa kapab ariv a en desizyon presi, eski i 35poursan, eski i 37poursan or whatever, donn lanmwatye. Equality is equity.
E, donk nou’n sibir en evolisyon. An 1993, an 1973 L’Angleterre, ler zot ti fer zot Matrimonial Causes Act, zot ti kodifye sa bann lide Ziz Denning, e zot ti met li dan Matrimonial Causes Act konman en seksyon.
Nou ler nou kodifye, nou Matrimonial Causes Act an 1993, nou’n fer menm zafer. Nou’n met li ladan, poudir ki Ziz i annan drwa irrespective lekel byen ki’n ganny anrezistre, pou li sanz sa lanrezistreman, e donn sakenn zot par, ler en divors i arive. Donk se sa sityasyon kot nou ete ozordi.
Me kantmenm, kantmenm i annan sa bann seksyon ki seksyon 20 e seksyon 24 ki nou’n fer rantre la dan bann lartik ki nou’n vwar yer, pou donn sa drwa Ziz fer sa, Ziz i still annan en diskresyon.
E sirtou dan sa 3enm vole, ki longer letan si napa kontribisyon direk oubyen endirek, ki longer letan ou pou ou pou dir ki sa madanm in fini ganny son 50poursan? Eski i 5an? Eski i 10an? Eski i 15an?
E Ziz pa’n zanmen tonm dakor lo la. En bann i donn en peryod en pe pli kourt, en bann i donn en peryod en pe pli long.
E sa se. E sa donk in anmenn en serten dezord. Akoz ou pa kapab konnen annavans ki ou pe al gannyen oubyen ki ou pa pe al gannyen.
2enm problenm ki sa lartik ki nou pe al regarde i adrese, se what about bann dimoun ki pa’n marye? Me ki dan menm sityasyon? 2 dimoun olye marye, zot menaz, enn i kontribye dan lakaz lot, directly, oubyen i kontribye li indirectly, oubyen i reste an menaz pou en kantite letan, in netway lakaz in kwi manze, in vey piti, in lave, in drese pou permet sa msye ale.
En madanm marye 1993 nou’n donn drwa ek Lakour, pou fer en sanzman pou donn sakenn son share. Me ler ou an menaz e ou pa’n marye, Matrimonial Causes Act pa aplike.
Alor Lakour i bezwen trouv en lot solisyon e sa se servi lartik 1381, 1381 ki dan aktyel e dan nouvo, pou dir sa i vin sa ki nou apel en unjust enrichment. Alor i dir pou bann dimoun menaz nou a don zot kontribisyon, me anba Lalwa Unjust Enrichment. Sel problenm se anba Lalwa Unjust Enrichment ou bezwen donn zis larzan, son kontribisyon, oubyen valer son kontribisyon.
Ou pa kapab donn li en bout sa propriyete. Setadir ki si ou’n marye e Ziz i vwar ki sa lakaz sa matrimonial home i devret malgre ki in anrezistre lo msye, i devret al lo madanm, oubyen lanmwatye i devret al lo madanm, ler ou’n marye, ler ou an menaz i pa kapab.
Si in anrezistre lo sa msye i bezwen kit li lo sa msye. E donn madanm en sonm larzan pou valer son kontribisyon.
Donk i annan en dezavantaz. Akoz kekfwa sa madanm li ki’n ganny custody zanfan, li ki anvi reste dan lakaz, oubyen li ki’n kontribye plis, me i still pa kapab gannyen, akoz Lalwa pa permet li. E li i bezwen pran zis son larzan al aste en lot landrwa somewhere else li avek son piti. Les sa mari dan son lakaz, malgre ki sa mari ki pli responsab pou sa breakup.
Alor Mr Chair dan en fason pou rezourd sa de problenm, ki se swa divors ki se swa maryaz, pardon ki se swa divors ki se swa an menaz en breakdown an menaz, nou pe propoz lartik 258, ki fer lekivalans ant sa de, ki fer lekivalans ant sa de ou plito, eskiz mon 259 – 258 mon ava vin lo la dan en minit, me sa bann lartik 258, 259 eksetera, set pou ariv a en lekivalans ant sa de – ant sa de sityasyon ; pou dir ki i pa enportan, si ou’n marye oubyen si ou an menaz, menm Lalwa pou aplike pou divizyon propriyete. Sa ki nou pe fer la i pa vedir ki menaz i vin parey maryaz. I zis an koneksyon avek divizyon propriyete, ler sa breakdown i arive. Pou ki i annan en lekivalans ant sa 2.
E nou pe propoze oubyen sa pe propoze ki sa 3enm fakter ki mon fek dir la taler, ler en relasyon in subsister pou en peryod letan, 5, 10, 15an, sa Lalwa pe dir annou fer li 7an.
Apre 7an ou’n fini ganny ou lanmwatye par. E se sa ki Lasanble pou bezwen fikse lo la ozordi. Eski 7an i rezonnab eski i tro kourt? Eski i tro long or whatever?
Alor Mr Chair avek sa pti avek sa pti istorik, 258 – lartik 258 i en lartik, ki sorti dan Status of Married Woman Act, ki permet a en koup – a en partner dan en koup a nenport ki moman, avan divors pou al Ankour pou demande dir mwan ki drwa mon annan lo byen lafanmir? Ok sa i egziste deza. I egziste depi 1948 ler nou ti pas Civil Status Act.
Okenn koup i kapab okenn en sa koup i kapab al Ankour a nenport ki moman e dir, dir mwan silvouple, si mon annan en par ? Eski mon annan en par ki sa par? Sa se ki 58 – 258 i dir. Si i annan en kestyon ou al Ankour, e Lakour i fer sa ki nou apel en summary hearing. I pa al dan en kantite detay, me in a summary way, ou fer en laplikasyon, e sa e sa Ziz i ava ekout ou, e i ava ekout lot kote i ava dir ki, ki par ou annan whatever.
Me sa pa zis sa se pa zis sa koup ki kapab fer li. Me okenn Lotorite Piblik ou prive, ki sa koup i annan en par ladan or whatever, i kapab osi fer sa laplikasyon a nenport ki moman. E sa i a permet par egzanp en labank al Ankour demande be lekel ant sa de dimoun ki annan par dan sa propriyete, kot mon annan en mortgage ladan, mon oule konnen, alors silvouple eksplik mwan pou nou konnen si nou’n ganny kouver or not.
E sa se parey nou vwar, domestic relationship; spouses or parties to a domestic relationship. Donk i tou lede. I pou dan en maryaz oubyen en koup ki pe viv an deor maryaz – an menaz.
La prezan 259 i dir swa si en koup marye, swa si en koup an menaz, e zot in reste ansanm pou omwen 7an, ler divors oubyen relasyon i kase, zot pou share egalman dan bann propriyete, ki’n ganny aquire depi i zot relasyon in konmanse. Setadir depi maryaz oubyen depi zot menaz in konmanse.
Sa ki in merite avan avek ou paran, oubyen sa ki ou ti gannyen avek ou marenn, pa antre ladan. Sa se zis quote … ‘’matrimonial property.’’ Sa ki ou’n gannyen ler zot in ansanm, oubyen sa ki zot in fer ler zot in ansanm. Ok? E i dir tre klerman sa i pa include succession or gift. Ok? Sa ki ou erite pa antre ladan.
E Lakour i annan – i kapab get tou bann sirkonstans, e fer okenn lord ki i kontan pou sa zanfan osi. I kapab donk anmezir ki i pe dir madanm ou annan tan, msye ou annan tan, i kapab osi dir sa i pou al pou sa zanfan. Mon pe donn ou sa me ou pa kapab pran li la, akoz i pou al pou ou zanfan ler ou zanfan i vin i vin pli gran.
E i annan en prezonpsyon ki sa matrimonial property in ganny acquire pandan sa relasyon. Si en dimoun i anvi dir non, non sa ti pou mwan akoz mon’n ti’n gannyen avek mon marenn, avan i pou bezwen vin prouve.
Me i annan en clause ki dir, dan sirkonstans eksepsyonnel si Lakour i krwar ki sa sharing 50/50 i pa byen. Repugnant to justice.
Akoz ? Par egzanp se sa se enn ant sa de dimoun ki’n koz sa breakdown ; i pa pou zis donn li 50poursan zis akoz in viv pandan 7an avek en dimoun, pou okenn rezon ki valab, i kapab dir mon pa pou donn lanmwatye. Mon ava donn ou mwens, or whatever.
E sa dimoun dan lekel propriyete in anrezistre, pou nou legzanp taler dizon sa msye ki li sa later ek sa lakaz i anrezistre lo li, i ava li ganny en opsyon. I kapab opt pou li kapab gard sa propriyete e pey sa lot partner son par. E vice versa.
Sa se en opsyon. Me annou pa bliye ki sa se selman en opsyon. I pa ti i pa tir selon mwan diskresyon Lakour pou fer en lord kont sa.
Ler sa relasyon i pou mwens ki 7an, ou pa ganny lanmwatye e Lakour i ava regard tou bann sirkonstans, e i annan en lalis sirkonstans la, ledikasyon, professional qualification, mwayen finansyel bann parti eksetera. E fer en aporsyonnman ki zis e ekitab, dan sa dan sa sirkonstans.
‘’Qualifying relationship’’, i ganny dekrir dan lartik 260 swa en maryaz swa en relasyon menaz, ant en zonm ek en fanm. Bezwen zonm ek fanm, ki’n ariv laz mazorite 18an, e ki sa relasyon in stab ek dan en fason kontini e napa okenn konsekans, napa okenn lanpesman legal pou sa relasyon. E bann fakter ki kapab montre stabilite ek kontinite, se ki zot annan zanfan, oubyen zot in aste later dan zot non konzwent.
E ki mannyer ou pou kalkil sa 7an ? Si ou’n reste an menaz avan ou marye, se depi zour ou’n konmans ou menaz ki sa 7an, i ganny konte, pou vi ki si ou’n konmans ou menaz avan 18an ou konmans konte ler ou’n ariv 18an e non pa ler ou ti konmans ansanm avan sa.
An menaz ; an menaz i arete ler enn ant sa de menazer i marye en lot dimoun, e sa ou’n ganny i ti ganny azoute dan nou bann extended Civil Code. Ou pa kapab rantre dan en relasyon menaz tan ki ou ankor marye avek en dimoun. Setadir ki si ou annan en madanm marye, e ou’n kite avek li e ou antre an menaz avek en lot dimoun sa menaz pa konte, sa lot dimoun pa pou ganny son par – son letan. I pa kalifye. Ou a bezwen divorse pou ou al rantre dan en menaz. E sa ti’n ganny fer avek lespri siport lenstitisyon maryaz.
Vwala Mr Chair sa se sa se sa bann nouvo prensip ki nou pe fer, rantre pou propriyete. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Mon a donn laparol Onorab Woodcock.
HON WAVEL WOODCOCK
Mersi Mr Speaker. Mon konpran le rezondet akoz sa provizyon in ganny fer dan sa Lalwa, dan sa Bill. Ozordi i annan plizyer bann sirkonstans kot i annan – I mean dan konteks Sesel i annan bokou dir ou pe viv an menaz. E bokou fwa i annan dir i annan en parti dan sa relasyon ki’n perdi, par lefe ki ler zot in kite byen zis enn sa parti ki’n gannyen.
Parey en konparezon en msye ek en madanm ki dan en relasyon pou 7an pou plizyer lannen. Me selman sa de zans in kite, akoz zot pa’n marye parey en konparezon en msye ki ti annan son lakaz, ouswa ki’n acquire lakaz ouswa ki’n fer lakaz ouswa ki’n acquire en propriyete ler zot in kite, sa madanm i endup san nanryen. I annan ki’n bezwen kit sa lakour, sa propriyete, i pa’n gannyen.
E sanmenm sa rezon ki sa Lalwa in ganny mete. Selman mwan mon annan en konsern mwan. Mon konsern se ki mon krwar i annan en konfli ant 259 (1) avek 259) (5). Nou’n dir ki nou pe met en threshold 7an. En threshold 7an kot parey i dir anba 259 (1) ki dan bann ka ki de dimoun pe viv an menaz ki’n ariv 7an, i dir ki propriyete ki zot in acquire tou lede, ouswa ansanm pandan sa relasyon, pou ganny divize egalman ant sa de parti.
Me selman anba (5) i dir ou ki Ziz pou bann dimoun ki’ viv an menaz pou mwens ki 7an, Lakour may make such an order as the Court thinks fit in respect of any property or either party to a relationship, or in respect of any interest or interest or right of a party in any property.
Nou pe met en threshold 7an, selman Lakour still i kapab fer determinasyon anba 7an, pou diviz propriyete egalman parmi sa de parti. So what is a point of met en threshold, me selman Lakour li i kapab donn desizyon pou bann dimoun ki’n viv 2an, 3an ansanm pou li separ propriyete, diviz propriyete ant de dimoun?
Konmsi nou met sa pou nou fer en serten konsesyon, pou nou ed bann dimoun an menaz. Me selman what is the point of having a threshold me selman Lakour i kapab desid otherwise? So sa i mon kestyon ki mon annan.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Ernesta.
HON PAUL ERNESTA
Mersi Mr Chair. Bonzour Mr Chair Minis ek ou delegasyon, tou bann koleg Onorab.
Mr Chair mwan osi mon annan serten petet query e menm petet serten rezervasyon. I annan diferan senaryo letan ou get sa lartik la.
Kot sirtou annou get dan premye 58 kot in fer provizyon, mon a take care pou tou pou tou lede, an menaz e pa an menaz. Annou dir en koup si oule, letan zot in marye, zot in al fer lakaz lo en propriyete zeritye. E prezan i ariv kitans enn ant le de in pran loan, lekel, ouswa ki mannyer i ganny deal avek sa premye senaryo?
En 2enm senaryo, annou dir sa de koup zot in marye zot in kite, e apre dan kitans en divors, separasyon byen, zot in fini sakenn ganny zot byen ; ganny partaze egalman.
Me apre nou vwar i annan bokou bann sirkonstans koumsa ki nou annan dan pei ozordi. Nou vwar apre sa de koup zot retournen ansanm, zot viv ek kanmarad pou ankor en pe letan, petet plis ankor, petet la ki mannyer i ganny deal avek, par lefe ki premye moman separasyon fini ganny fer bann separasyon byen, fini ganny fer – e la lekel ki pou benefisye dan sa enn konteks, pou ganny gete parey or diferaman?
E 3enm senaryo annou dir en koup an menaz prezan, letan sa en partner any of the two, in fini ankor -i annan son lakaz. I annan son – annou dir i annan en loto, i annan tou son asset li. E prezan sa lot in antre dan lavi zot in viv pou en pe letan ansanm, e apre annou dir 7an parey lord i stipile ladan. E i ariv en separasyon, la ki mannyer i ganny gete – par lefe ki sa in dan avan ler in antre dan sa relasyon, zot in, in deza annan tou son bann byen, tou son bann asset, eski i pou ganny trete egalman parey or i pou annan serten zistis ki pou ganny fer avek sa partner ki li in deza annan tou son bann byen? Mersi Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Ernesta. Onorab William.
HON WAVEN WILLIAM
Mersi Mr Speaker. Bonzour tou dimoun ki a lekout, bonzour Minis avek ou delegasyon.
Mr Speaker mon ti a montan demann en pti leklersisman avek Chairperson Bills Committee, i annan en dimoun pe demande par egzanp si avan i antre dan an relasyon maryaz, i ti annan en propriyete e i vann sa propriyete i re envestir, eski sa propriyete i devret ganny partaze ant sa de dimoun letan i annan divors?
E dezyenmman Mr Speaker, par egzanp dimoun osi pe demande la, si sa letap 7an i deza anfors konmela ouswa prezan ki sa Kod i ganny aksepte, ki sa 7an i konmanse, so i annan dimoun ki anvi konn en pti pe lo la.
Epi trwazyenmman, dizon ou annan en koup ki’n marye, e ouswa an menaz i annan zanfan ki ti partisip dan batir sa fwaye, me zanfan in ale, in marye, prezan dizon papa i mor, si nou pe dir ki lanmwatye i ti pou papa – son lanmwatye ti pou madanm then ki porsyon ouswa poursantaz ki sa zanfan li, ki’n kontribye, me selman ki pa reste dan sa fwaye la, eski tou pou al pou sa madanm ouswa sa zanfan osi pou annan par ladan? Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab William. Onorab Ferrari. Yes Onorab Ferrari.
HON JEAN-FRANÇOIS FERRARI
Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman premyerman mon ti a kontan remersye Onorab Georges. Akoz dan son leksplikasyon in- mon mazinen in kapab eklersi en pe, en query ki enn mon bann constituents in fek leve avek mwan yer. E zisteman i annan pour fer avek sa bouret makadanm, ki en partner i kontribye, e li sa dimoun ti pe gete si son bouret makadanm ki i ti kontribye pour fer Maison du Peuple, konmsi, si i menm prensip pour aplike, konmsi i annan en par ladan. Vi ki la in divorse avek sa parti. E ki prezan i pe gete konmsi kote ki’n arive avek son par? Non mon pe zis- Mr Chairman.
MR SPEAKER
Kontinyen.
HON JEAN-FRANÇOIS FERRARI
Mon pe zis gete si menm prensip ki pour aplike. Donk sa i – mon remersye Onorab Georges pour sa leksplikasyon.
Dezyenmman Mr Chairman.
(Interruption)
HON JEAN-FRANÇOIS FERRARI
Nou a donn zot 2 minit pour zot fer zot bann teat. Ler zot a’n fini fer zot bann teat, prezan mon mwan ava antre.
(Interruption)
MR SPEAKER
Bon, annou mepriz en pti pe bann komanter, pour pa enteronp en Manm, pour nou kapab kontinyen. Onorab Ferrari.
HON JEAN-FRANÇOIS FERRARI
Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman mon kestyon prezan i vin lo sa qualifying relationship. E si mon’n ganny li kler, Onorab Georges in eksplike poudir sa qualifying relationship, sa definisyon en qualifying relationship i annan pour fer avek Property Orders only dan sa seksyon.
E se pour sa ki mon mon’n esper a sa moman anba sa seksyon pour mwan lev sa pwen. Akoz i en pwen mon konnen ki contentieux. Me selman koman bann Lezislater nou bezwen – nou pa kapab met nou latet dan disab e pa vwar en sityasyon modern ki pe evolye. Anba 259 (6) e prezan – ki’n ganny prezan mete dan 260. ‘‘A domestic relationship or a qualifying relationship means either a marriage or a domestic relationship between a man and a woman of full age’’.
Now, nou konnen poudir ki mannyer lemonn pe evolye i annan bann relasyon ki pa neseserman en marriage, oubyen i pa neseserman en domestic relationship as defined as ‘menaz’. Akoz i ant 2 dimoun of the same sex.
Now, mwan personnelman, mon annan en – mon antas en valer personnel avek sa mo ‘maryaz’. Alors mon pa ankor – mon pa dan sa pozisyon konmsi pour mwan amalgamate en maryaz ant en zonm ek en fanm pour fer li vin ekivalan avek en maryaz of 2 dimoun of the same sex.
Me selman mon santi ki nou bezwen antisip sa movman sosyal ki pour – ki nou pour ganny konfronte avek a lavenir kot 2 dimoun of the same sex pour dan en relasyon sivil.
Mon pour le moman mwan vwar li koman en keksoz sivil, pa – An respe pour tou bann krwayans Relizye.
Alors eski pa le moman pour nou annan sa- pour nou poz sa kestyon? Pour nou reponn sa kestyon? Pour nou dir be ok. Par egzanp, akoz mon krwar poudir i en pe retrograd, i en pe vye lepok pour dir, ‘‘A domestic relationship can only be between a man and a women. It can be between 2 persons.’’
So- be sa- mwan mon pa- mon napa sa dimansyon Legal pour mwan vwar son lenplikasyon lo tou lezot laspe sa Kod ki devan nou.
E probableman i annan bann lenplikasyon enorm. So mon pe zis met sa. Mon pe met sa – en sityasyon ki egziste ozordi, ki 2 dimoun i aste keksoz, zot pey en loan ansanm, zot reste ansanm dan en relasyon. E zot- kekfwa zot pe met zot propriyete lo en Konpannyen. Akoz zot pa- i- that’s the safest way pour protez zot sa.
Me selman pour bann ki pa fer li, ki napa sa proteksyon legal. Kekfwa nou, nou devret pe komans mazinen ki mannyer nou ofer zot en proteksyon legal. So, so.
E finalman. Ou kapab- dan ka en separasyon – me selman menm avan sa dan ka en lanmor, 2 dimoun in kontribye e konmsi ki arive avek sa byen? Mon krwar i enportan ki nou vizit enn sa kestyon e san ouver li tro larz, mon ti a kontan ganny en lopinyon bann Manm Onorab ki isi e panel lo sa size, ki mon konnen i delika. Me selman koman bann Lezislater responsab, mon krwar ki i nou responsabilite pour nou adres li a sa moman. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Lemiel.
HON SYLVANNE LEMIEL
Mersi Mr Chairman. Bonzour tou dimoun. Mr Chairman mon ti a kontan eklersi en keksoz. Par egzanp i annan en dimoun in dan menaz, in sot son 7an. In ariv en separasyon. I pa’n mazinen li la, ler in ariv sa separasyon pour li vin claim son byen. I pa’n kontribye nanryen li. Me selman ozordi meton in pas 3an – konbyen dele letan apre ki en menaz in kase, eski en dimoun i kapab vin claim byen menm si i pa’n kontribye nanryen? Me i kapab vin claim byen dan sa landrwa kot i ti pe reste?
Dezyenmman; nou pe dir ki- pa konnen si mon pe tourn deryer la en. Nou kapab fer maryaz Kontra. Ozordi i annan sityasyon ki par egzanp la ler nou pe diskite, prezan ki dimoun pe ganny sansibilize, pe ganny en konpran poudir avan i annan bokou nou- mon mon’n pa’n marye ek en Kontra mwan. Ou konnen demen mon separe, mwan pour vwar mon petet pe bezwen donn lanmwatye, lanmwatye. Menm si kekfwa lot i kontribye pli ptigit. I pa le ka, me selman en legzanp.
Ler nou pe diskite la, arive ki en dimoun i deside prezan pour li dir, ‘’Be mon oule vin devan pour mwan vin fer en Kontra? ‘Menm mon ankor dan maryaz mon oule fer en Kontra dan sa maryaz ki mon ladan la. Eski i kapab? Mersi Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Vidot.
HON AUDREY VIDOT
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon kestyon ki mon oule demann avek Onorab Georges, Mon’n ekout atantivman son leksplikasyon. Me i annan en leklersisman mon oule gannyen.
An referans ki menm si swa maryaz, swa menaz 7an, si sa 2 dimoun ansanm dan zot relasyon, apre sa 7an zot in-swa zot in separe- zot separe. Me avan zot separe petet dan sa menaz, enn ladan i erit en propriyete avek en manm fanmir. Eski zot separasyon zot bezwen partaze? Akoz pli boner ou’n dir lotreman ki si in zwenn li avek, i pa neseserman i benefisye. Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Loze.
HON JOHAN LOZE
Mersi Mr Speaker. Bonzour tou dimoun. Mr Speaker mon ti anvi demann Onorab Georges, fas avek konsern ki bokou dimoun pe leve lo sa size. Si nou kapab dir ki sa ki nou pe fer lo sa size concubinage i zis en normalizasyon larealite aktyel dan son form legal.
Akoz mon pe dir sa? Mon a sit en legzanp senp. Letan en koup pe rod lakaz, Minister Lakaz laba zot dir ou 8poursan net salary ki i antre dan sa lakaz. E deza li i pe ofisyelman pran sa msye ek sa madanm regardless si zot in marye, si zot an concubinage in atas zot saler ansanm pour li ganny sa 8poursan pour li fer son bann tranzaksyon.
So nou deza annan en keksoz egzistan ki pe ganny pratike dan en form kwazi legal. E eski nou pe zis normaliz bann sa bann pratik la, anba tou proteksyon legal pour protez the concubine?
Mr Speaker, e finalman. Konsernan sa bouret fizi la Onorab, si sa pour ganny rezourd parey larzan radyo ki’n ganny vole? Si larzan radyo osi pour ganny rann? Mersi Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Bon mon pour retourn- mon retourn- zis avan mon donn la parol Onorab Georges oubyen okenn Manm panel. Onorab Ernesta ou ti ankor annan en query? Minister apre mon ava retourn kot ou. Onorab Ernesta.
HON PAUL ERNESTA
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon’n tann- sorry mon’n fek ganny en text avek enn mon rezidan ki i annan zis en pti pwen klarifikasyon ki i bezwen. Petet Onorab Georges kapab ede dan sa direksyon.
Pli boner in mansyonn diferan fason kot en dimoun i kapab ganny bann drwa letan i annan bann divors partaz bann byen.
Annou dir; mon krwar in nonm sa 3enm senaryo menm si pa’n kontribye direk ou direkteman. Me annou dir parey mwan mon dan en bon relasyon, prezan nou’n built nou. Me solman mwan, zis mon’n bwar mwan. Ok mon’n bwar tou mon lavi, mon pa’n kontribye dan lakaz, pa’n fer nanryen. Me an menm tan mon’n kont landrwa mwan. Me letan i ariv en ka divors. Eski bann byen pour ganny partaze egalman? Ouswa- petet si mon osi mon entitle pour ganny menm right parey bann benefis ki’n ganny spesifye pli boner? Thank you Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Mon krwar ou a ganny ou bann boutey vid non? Onorab. Mon a donn Onorab William, apre Minis Adam, apre Onorab Georges. Onorab William.
HON WAVEN WILLIAM
Mersi Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker zisteman mon pe reflesir en pti pe la lo sa ki nou pe fer. Mon krwar sa pwen ki Onorab Ferrari in leve, mon krwar i en pwen ki ozordi nou devret pe focus osi lo la. Akoz i annan son lenportans, pour nou kapab koriz bann lenzistis.
E dezyenmman Mr Speaker, letan nou pe koz lo maryaz avek menaz. Letan nou pe koz propriyete, nou pe rankontre bokou ka o nivo distrik ozordi, kot i konsern lakaz; kot i konsern menaz ouswa marye kot letan ler i ale. Me ozordi kot Housing pe demande, be eski letan ou pe vin rod en bout later, ouswa en bout lakaz, nou pour met lo tou lede?
E lot tandans ki mon ti a kontan ki Chairperson Bills Committee i eklersi nou.
Konpare avek lontan avek konmela, lo sa laspe maryaz avek menaz, eski i pour prida,n ouswa i pour conseillable pour bann zenn ozordi ki letan- baze lo bann sityasyon ki pe devlope, eski nou pe ankouraz nouvo zenerasyon ki antre dan en relasyon, pour antre avek en Kontra pour sofgard zot lavenir?
Akoz nou pe bouz dan serten direksyon ki ozordi ler ou regarde, sa fason panse lontan avek konmela i pe devye.
So mon ti a kontan ganny en pti leksplikasyon. Akoz mon santi poudir a en serten moman nou pour ganny anpaye dan serten keksoz. Me nou pour bezwen vwar li avek en lizye vreman ouver. Mersi Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Mon krwar Onorab Woodcock i bezwen mazin en pti pe son entervansyon. Akoz i vre sa zafer later ek lakaz kot ou kapab fek komans en relasyon. Me si ou pe al apply en lakaz, en later. I pa espere si ou annan 7an, ou kontribisyon i ganny pran tou le 2 partner ansanm. E si avan 7an sa relasyon i kase, kote sa enn ki’n kontribye i al rod son kontribisyon? Si nou pe dir en Ziz pa’n annan drwa fer bann zizman, bann Ruling ki pour ranmas sa lot osi ki’n kontribye. Bon Minis Adam.
MINISTER JEAN-PAUL ADAM
Mersi bokou Mr Speaker. E bonzour tou bann Manm Onorab. E tou dimoun pe swiv nou deba.
Mon krwar ki petet Onorab Georges pour pli byen plase pour reponn an detay bann diferan kestyon ki’n monte. Me mon pour adres serten size lo en baz ase zeneral.
Premyerman lentansyon sa Prozedlwa, se pour regilariz en pti pe bann pratik ki deza Ankour. I annan serten pti diferans ki mon krwar Onorab Georges pour al en pti pe pli an detay.
Me a la baz- akoz sityasyon ki nou fer fas avek ozordi, se larealite nou lavi. Dimoun i dan bann relasyon an menaz. E zot annan propriyete ansanm, zot annan relasyon ansanm. E sa bann sityasyon pe al devan Lakour, e Lakour ozordi pe definir kisisa en menaz. Me dan bann diferan sirkonstans depandan sa ka in annan diferan definisyon. Atraver sa Prozedlwa nou pe donn gidans dan en fason pli kler; savedir dimoun – nou pe definir pli byen kisisa en menaz, e ou pe fer li pli kler- e savedir tou dimoun i pli byen konpran an avans lo ki zot kapab ekspekte dan en tel relasyon. Akoz i en swa.
En maryaz i en Kontra. En menaz i pa en Kontra, me si ou’n fer serten kontribisyon dan en menaz, sa i eksplike ki mannyer ou definir en menaz dan nou Lalwa dan en fason pli sistematik, e pour dir dan en fason zeneral ki sa pe deza ganny fer.
Me dan Lakour depandan ki Ziz, depandan sirkonstans petet, sak ka pour en pti pe diferan. E i pour ed nou sitwayen pour zot konnen klerman an avans dapre Lalwa la i la, nou met serten kriter. Me nou rekonnet ki pa tou kriter ki kapab ganny definir dan en Lalwa. E se pour sa i annan en serten lespas ki i lese par egzanp pour bann Ziz zize dan serten ka. Dan bann ka ki mwens ki 7an eksetera.
2enm pwen ki mon pour tous lo la, se pwen ki Onorab Ferrari in fer sorti. E mon oule dir ki pozisyon Gouvernman se totalman an a kor avek sa ki in dir. E nou ava note ki annefe dokiman ki Cabinet ti aprouve, ti koz lo Lartik 260 (1) lo en relasyon ant dimoun, 2 persons. E sa amannman ki’n ganny mete pour ant one men and one women in vin apre.
Mon krwar petet apre diskisyon avek Standing Bills Committee. E mon krwar i pour pli realis, baze lo larealite nou sosyete ki nou fer – ki nou ladan ozordi, pour nou dir li ant 2 persons. Akoz i reflekte larealite ki i annan dimoun ki pe fer, ki pe viv an menaz, e ki bezwen serten proteksyon.
E sa Lalwa i anmenn sa proteksyon vizavi zot byen e zot relasyon. Me pour kler, pour nou kler i pa pe konsern maryaz. I pe konsern bann relasyon an menaz parey in ganny definir dan Lalwa.
Me alor zis pour dir ki pozisyon Gouvernman lo la, se si nou ti kapab mentenir sa Langaz orizinal ki koz ant 2 dimoun. Mersi Mr Speaker e mersi Onorab.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Minister. Onorab Ramkalawan.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Non, non Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Ok. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon kontan sa bann kestyon ki’n ganny demande. Akoz i toutafe a la baz sa reform ki nou pe fer.
E parey Minis in dir. Sa ki pe arive la, set en prise de conscience e se- pe sey eklersi en pti pe keksoz ki egziste dan larealite, me ki nou bezwen pa met nou latet dan disab, e fer fas avek.
E enn fwa pour tou met li devan. Akoz sa evolisyon parey mon’n eksplike taler, in pran en kantite letan. E si mon kapab retournen, akoz mwan krwar ki lenspirasyon sa dimoun ki isi dan sa lasal la ozordi se Ziz Sauzier ki ti en- ki ti an menm tan en Katolik committed e konvenki e en gran liberal. E i ti kapab manage sa 2 keksoz dan en fason ekstraordiner. Se li ki’n fer premye pa pour donn en madanm ki son non i pa lo propriyete en par.
E in fer en 2enm pa kot in dir sa pa zis aplik pour matrimonial home. Me i kapab aplik pour en biznes osi, e in donn en madanm en lanmwatye dan en biznes ki son msye ti annan.
E trwazyenmman ler i ti’n ariv devan Lakour D’Appel i ti extend sa prensip pour 2 dimoun ki pa ti’n marye. Me malerezman dan Lakour D’Appel i ti dan en minorite 1 en 2 lezot Ziz ki ti an mazorite ti vot kont. Akoz zot ti krwar ki i ti pe al tro lwen. Me ozordi nou’n realize ki annefe se nou ki ti an retar e se li ki ti annan avans.
Alor mon ti ava kontan met lo rikord ki se li lenspirasyon pour tou sa bann keksoz ki pe ganny fer ozordi. E parey in ganny dir, tou sa ki nou pe fer la, Lakour pe fer ozordi.
Akoz Lakour i bezwen fer zistis e bezwen trouv en fason pour fer lazistis ler i ariv devan zot. Sa ki nou pe fer, se met li dan en lankadreman ki pli ouver, ki pli onnet e ki pour donn plis gidans avek Lakour. Olye les Lakour rode ki mannyer pour arive fer lazistis.
Mr Chair, Onorab Ernesta in demann plizyer kestyon. E enn son bann kestyon dernyen la se, enn ant sa 2 koup i pa fer nanryen li, i diverti kontan, me clock in son 7an. Eski i pour ganny son lanmwatye ipso facto?
Sa in konsern nou bokou. Ler- bann ki’n drafte sa provizyon e nou’n dir ki si i repinyan pour donn sa dimoun, la nou vwar li la 259 (3). Si sirkonstans i eksepsyonnel e Lakour i vwar li repinyan pour donn sa dimoun son par, apre ki in clock up, Lakour i kapab donn li mwens, oubyen pa donn li ditou. E donk sa se pour rezourd sa problenm. Si ou’n diverti kontan, ou’n clock ou 7an, ou’n les sa lot dimoun fer tou keksoz, malgre ki ou merite ganny ou lanmwatye ou pa pour gannyen. Akoz Lakour pa pour les ou fer sa.
Lo kestyon later zeritye. Sa i vin parey en leritaz. Ou pa pour ganny en par dan sa later zeritye, akoz sa i pour reste pour sa dimoun ki sa zeritye, sa enn dan sa koup ki sa zeritye. Ou ava ganny en par dan sa konstriksyon ki ou’n fer lo sa later zeritye.
E parey nou’n dir la, propriyeter ki son non i lo lavant, e sa se pour sa zeritye, akoz se li ki pour erite. I kapab opt pout li gard e pour pey sa konpansasyon a sa lot koup.
Si i annan en lenteripsyon dan sa 7an, ou fer 2an apre ou ale, apre ou retournen, ou fer ankor 2an or whatever. Se son aggregate ki pour konte.
Enn fwa ki ou’n fer ou 7an, si ou’n fer li lo 20an, me ou’n kapab clock up 7an. Ou ava kalifye subject to repinyans. Si Lakour i vwar ki ou pa’n vreman fer en- ou pa’n- sa relasyon pa’n vreman stab. Akoz ou’n ale ou’n vini, ou’n ale ou’n vini. I pa pour donn ou sa poursantaz. Donk i annan touzour en diskresyon ki reste. E ankor enn fwa si en partner i annan assets deza, sa pa konte.
E la mon ava fer en parantez. Dan Lalwa mannyer i ete la ki nou pe propoze. Ou asset ki ou annan ou menm, ki ou’n erite avan sa relasyon i komanse, oubyen ki ou erite pandan relasyon, ou paran i mor, e ou erit en keksoz. Oubyen ou ganny en gift, tousala pa konte.
Dan Lalwa modern Angle ozordi, L’Angleterre dan- pa dan tou ka. Me dan sa ki zot apel ‘’high networth cases’’ kot en boug i napa assets ki vo R1 milyon li. I annan assets ki vo £800 milyon pounds, zot pa regarde si in erite, si i en gift. Sa lot partner i ganny son par out of the whole.
Akoz parey Arnold Schwarzenegger ti dir ‘‘never let it be said that money doesn’t bring happiness’’. I used to have $50 million Dollars, I now have 48 million Dollars and I’m just as happy as when i had $50 million Dollars.’’ Ou vwar i- ou pa pour al rod bann ptipti pounds isi laba ler i annan en kantite. Me nou pa dan sa konteks la. Sa konteks isi la se, ou- bann dimoun ki annan en assets normal. La ou pa pran konsiderasyon sa bann ki 1 in erite selman.
Me parey nou dir, sa se default sa en. Sa se sa ki pour arive ler bann parti pa kapab tonm dakor. Dan bokou ka ler en koup i separe oubyen divorse, zot tonm dakor lo ki mannyer pour diviz zot propriyete. Sa se zis ler sa pa arive.
Onorab Waven William, sorry Wavel Woodcock i trouve- in dir ki 7an i paret kekfwa en pe kourt si mon’n byen konpran, non? Ok sorry I’ve– mon’n notes i tro kourt, eskiz mwan. Nou a retourn lo la taler.
Kontra; Onorab William in demande, eski sa pa pe- ki sa Lalwa pa pour fors plis dimoun antre dan Kontra maryaz? Mon krwar larepons i wi. E sa i en bon keksoz. Akoz parey nou pour vwar ler nou ariv dan siksesyon, sa ki nou pe- si Lasanble i retenir sa prensip ki ou siksesyon i lib, ou kapab fer sa ki ou anvi, sa pour fors dimoun fer en Testaman. Akoz zot annan laliberte la aprezan. Alors zot a kapab fer en Testaman pour dir lekel ki pour ganny zot byen, olye zis les Lakour, oubyen zis les Lalwa deside.
What about zanfan ki’n ede? La osi parey nou ti vwar pli boner. Sa Lalwa i permet Lakour ler i fer sa divizyon pran konsiderasyon zanfan. E kekfwa donn zot en par zot osi. E la- e sa i lo Board la, mon fek mete.
Mon partaz lopinyon anfen kestyon Onorab Ferrari ek lopinyon Minis ek Gouvernman ki ‘2 persons’ i pli bon ki ‘man and a woman’. E sa pa vin koman en keksoz nouvo. Akoz zot konn, zot konnen ki mannyer mon mwan mazinen dan sa bann sityasyon.
E mon krwar in ariv ler pour nou rekonnet larealite e pour nou pran nou ran parmi bann pei modern. Nou pa pe al the whole way. Sa i ava pour en lot moman.
Me ozordi par egzanp si 2 dimoun menm sex zot reste ansanm e zot kontribye ansanm, Lakour pour trouv en solisyon. E pour trouv en solisyon swa dan unjust enrichment parey i fer avek bann dimoun an menaz. Oubyen i pour prezimen ki i annan sa ki nou apel en Société de fait. A partnership in fact, not in Law. Zot pa’n al fer en dokiman partnership, be an fe zot dan en partnership.
Alor si Lakour pour donn zot sa, in any event. Akoz nou pa bold e retourn lo nou premye text 2 persons?
Onorab Lemiel in demann konbyen letan ou annan apre ki ou relasyon in ariv a lafen pour ou demande? Nou tonm Onorab dan peryod preskripsyon normal ki 5an.
Ou bezwen fer li dan en peryod 5an swivan sa divors oubyen sa breakdown, unless ki dan Matrimonial Causes rules nou pour met en peryod mwens. Me pour le moman ou annan 5an depi ler ou ganny drwa fer en keksoz, pour ou fer li. Si non ou perdi sa drwa.
Onorab Lemiel osi i demande, si ou pa’n fer en Kontra de marriage avan ou marye, me ou anvi fer enn pandan sa maryaz oubyen sa menaz. Wi ou kapab fer li parey nou ti vwar yer, Lartik 1134 i donn nou laliberte fer en Kontra nenport ki moman.
Me solman i annan 2 dimoun ki bezwen fer sa Kontra, fodre lot osi i dakor. Si ou anvi fer en Kontra de marriage akoz antretan ou’n ganny en kantite assets e ou pa anvi donn li. E li i pa anvi antre dan sa Kontra, ou pa pour kapab fer li. Ou pour tonm anba Lalwa. Fodre tou lede dimoun i dakor.
Sel letan kot ou ganny forse pour fer sa Kontra, se ler ou marye, right at the beginning. Akoz parey nou’n vwar yer, Zofisye Leta Sivil pour demann ou.
Onorab Vidot in demande si ou erit en keksoz pandan sa relasyon, pandan letan ki ou pe viv ansanm, swa ou marye, swa ou an menaz. Ou erit en keksoz, sa osi Onorab pa ganny konsidere. Akoz i en leritaz, i en gift ki ou’n gannyen. Ki ou’n ganny avan, ki ou’n ganny apre. Mannyer nou’n drafte Lalwa la, sa pa ganny pran an konsiderasyon. Sa i ava reste pour sa dimoun ki’n erite e ki’n gannyen.
Mon krwar rezon ki nou’n fer sa, se akoz sa peryod 7an i ase kourt. Si olye dir 7an nou ti’n dir 15an, oubyen 20an pour ou ganny en lanmwatye, la mon krwar nou ti ava kapab fer antre byen ki ou’n gannyen par gift oubyen par Testaman.
Onorab Loze i demande si sa ki nou pe fer, se par normaliz sa ki pe arive? Annefe wi, korek. Set egzakteman sa ki nou pe fer. E se an rekonesans ki 8 koup lo 10 dan nou pei pa marye, me ki tou bann koup i annan assets ki nou bezwen anmenn Lalwa up-to-date e fer Lalwa koresponn a sa ki arive an realite. Olye fer krwar ki zis dimoun marye ki i annan drwa ganny proteksyon anba Lalwa. Vwala Mr Chair, mersi. Mon krwar mon’n reponn lamazorite bann kestyon. Sof pour sa enn ki i annan pour fer avek 7an ki mon’n mal marke. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Onorab Aglae.
HON EGBERT AGLAE
Mersi Mr Speaker. Bonzour Minis ek panel. Mon ti oule en leklersisman. An vi ki anba menaz, sa 7an par egzanp- anyway nou’n koz lo propriyete lo gift. Me ozordi nou annan bokou- ennler i annan pratik kot nou annan bann- kot i konsern bank account kot nou fer joint accounts ok?
E ler pour ariv sa moman letan kot i annan separasyon ok. Petet sa larzan in ganny met lo sa kont, e osi i kapab sa larzan in ganny servi pour fer lezot lenvestisman ankor – ok?
So ki mannyer nou pour tret sa ka la nou? Pour nou kapab ganny lo en konklizyon pour ou, pour tou lede parti la? Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Aglae. Onorab Georges mon a pas ou la parol. Me an menm tan i annan kestyon Onorab Woodcock ki pa’n ganny aborde osi tou.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Pardon. Wi mon pa rapel son kestyon. Kekfwa.
MR SPEAKER
Onorab Woodcock ti pe kestyonn, an vi ki nou pe sey- nou pe mazin pour nou donn 7an. Pour nou prescribe 7an koman sa letan ki en relasyon menm an menaz i sa. Akoz ki provizyon i fer ki si sa relasyon i termin avan 7an, Ziz i kapab rantre pour fer serten desizyon. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Egzakteman prezan mon rapel. Eskiz mon Onorab, mon ti’n mal rikord ou kestyon.
7an i en prezonpsyon legalite. Setadir ki si ou’n clock 7an, Lakour a mwens ki i trouve ki i pa, les mon a servi- les mon pa envant bann mo. A mwens ki i trouve ki i repinyan pour donn lanmwatye sa lot parti. I pour bezwen donn li lanmwatye. Sa se en prezonpsyon.
Me si ou’n clock up mwens ki 7an, Lakour prezan i bezwen annan en diskresyon pou dir konbyen ou pour gannyen. Akoz ou pa ankor ariv sa tarif ki i donn ou lanmwatye otomatikman. E i posib ki ou pour ganny lanmwatye. Wi i posib ou ganny plis ki lanmwatye depandan lo ou investment ki ou’n fer.
Me par anba 7an ou pa kapab benefisye en prezonpsyon legalite. Ou bezwen anmenn levidans Ankour, pour Lakour deside konbyen ou pour gannyen swivan duration sa relasyon e ou kontribisyon direk or endirek.
E se pour sa rezon ki i annan sa 2 Clause, sa- i pa en kontradiksyon. Me ou bezwen cater pour bann dimoun ki pa’n clock in 7an pour ou konnen ki kantite proporsyon pour ou donn zot.
Onorab Aglae, joint account i pour sibir menm sor. Akoz si ou annan en joint account ler ou ariv a en divors oubyen ou peryod an menaz i arete, sa i pour vin enn sa bann matrimonial assets ki pour ganny divize.
E si- e en joint account son prezonpsyon se, ki 50/50. Alors si zot- si ou ariv a lafen. ou ariv en divors oubyen a lafen en menaz. Sa joint account son prezonpsyon se ki i pour lanmwatye, lanmwatye. Me annou pa bliye ki sa 50percent se 50percent of all the assets. I pa oule dir ki zot koup lakaz an 2 e ou pour ganny lanmwatye, li i pour ganny lanmwatye. Kont pour ganny koup an 2. Se lavaler bann assets ki pour ganny separe. E mon konnen sa i pa dan kestyon, me kekfwa mon ava zis fer. Akoz bokou dimoun i demande ki i arive ek joint account.
Bokou joint account dan labank i annan en prensip survivorship. Setadir ler lanmor i arive, sa lot holder of the joint account ki pa’n mor, i ganny tou.
Ti annan en case resaman devan Lakour, kot Lakour ti pe ganny demande eski ler en partner dan en joint account i mor, son lanmwatye sa joint account i vin estate – sa enn ki’n mor pour al pour son zeritye, oubyen eski tou i vin pour sa lot holder of the joint account.
E prensip se, tou pour vin pour sa lot holder of the joint account e non pa zeritye sa enn ki’n mor. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Bon nou’n ariv lo en pozisyon mon krwar ki apropriye avan nou pran en break, pour nou pran en desizyon lo Property Orders. Sa i Lartik 258 ziska 260. E mon ava demann tou Manm ki an- yes Onorab- plus amannman. Ou’n fer rantre sa bann lamannman?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mr Chair nou pa ankor rezourd ki nou pour fer avek 2 persons.
MR SPEAKER
Ah bon? Mon ti panse i annan en konsansis. Eski nou aksepte sa amannman dan plas pour met en relasyon spesyalman an menaz ‘between a man and a woman’ e nou mete en relasyon an menaz ‘between 2 persons’. Yes Onorab Ferrari.
HON JEAN-FRANÇOIS FERRARI
Non zis akoz mon ti- se mon ki’n lev sa pwen inisyalman. Mon ti a zis kontan dir ki nou-mon ti anvi en reasirans from the panel that the consequences do not extend beyond this section. If it does, then I will have to trust your judgment on that. Me I raise it now, because this is my interpretation. So can we be reassured on that point?
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Honorable. Onorab Ramkalawan.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Yes Mr Chairman, mon pe zis sey- mwan osi mon pe regard sa. Parske nou pa anvi apel li an menaz. Mon ti ava propoze ki dan 260 ki nou dir something in this Code ‘‘a qualifying relationship means either a marriage comma (,). A domestic relationship ‘en ménage’ or a relationship between 2 persons, of full age and capacity, characterized by stability and continuity, into which there is no legal impediment’. Something like that. Mon pa konnen. It’s best to throw something e apre sa, nou lager lo la. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Panel. Professor or Onorab Georges ou oule rantre?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mon mwan ti pe al- wi mon konpran egzakteman sa ki Onorab pe dir Mr Chair. Akoz 2 dimoun menm sex ki reste ansanm, i pa en relasyon en menaz. An menaz dan nou Langaz se en zonm ek en madanm ki pa’n marye ki pe reste ansanm.
Alor nou bezwen trouv en fason pour dekrir sa. E ti ava annan en lot- i annan en lot keksoz osi. Se ki to which there no legal impediment. Nou bezwen get sa byen an sa ki konsern 2 dimoun menm sex. Akoz i kapab ganny enterprete ki i annan en legal impediment. Alor eski mon kapab propoze ki si nou pour break pour pran en soz, ki nou a regard sa en pti kou during the break. E ler nou retournen nou ava regard li.
MR SPEAKER
Dakor. Professor we will break and this will be considered during the break and we’ll come back with a decision at 11. So nou ava break e nou ava retournen 11er pour nou kontinyen.
(BREAK)
MR SPEAKER
Bon nou pa ankor quorate. Mon ava donn ankor 2 minit pour bann Manm rantre. Bon mon krwar Lasanble i quorate. Nou ava kontinyen nou travay. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Eskiz mwan Mr Chair, mwan pe rod mon plas kot nou ti ete. Vwala.
Mr Chair avan ki nou, avan ki nou proceed, avek ou permisyon, pandan break i annan enn de Manm ki’n demann mwan enn de kestyon ki mon krwar i ava tre enportan pour nou adrese. Enn se en joint account. Si ou’n fer en Testaman dan lekel ou’n fer serten dispozisyon lo ou larzan ki dan en joint account. Setadir ou’n dir mon lanmwatye mon anvi ki i al pour mon zanfan e non pa pour mon msye ki mon joint account holder. Eski sa pour aplike? Larepons i wi.
Akoz ou’n pran en desizyon lo ki ou pou fer avek ou lanmwatye dan sa joint account.
2enm. En 2enm kestyon, e set enn ki tre preokipan. Se ler ou annan en Kontra de marriage. Si ou’n fer en prenup. Eski se sa prenup ki pour determin divizyon propriyete? Oubyen eski se Lalwa ki pour determin divizyon propriyete? E mon krwar larepons senp, i pa en larepons senp. Me larepons senp se ki Lalwa i la as a default provision, pour ou ler ou pa’n fer okenn lezot provizyon.
Donk si ou fer en prenup se sa prenup ki pour aplike non pa, e non pa Lalwa. E mon’n dir i annan en konplikasyon, me mon pa krwar ki sa konplikasyon nou devret al ladan la, akoz i annan serten ka, kot malgre ki i annan en prenup lazistis i ava determin otherwise. Me zeneralman se prenup i ava enprimen akoz i vin Lalwa prive ant sa 2 parti ki zot in fer par en Kontra e i supersede Lalwa piblik ki i dan bann liv.
3enm kestyon se en Testaman. Eski en Testaman pour li osi pran priyorite lo sa ki i dan Lalwa. E larepons se wi. Ankor enn fwa set en dokiman ki ou’n fer akoz ou pa anvi ki Lalwa i ganny aplike dan en serten sirkonstans.
E Lalwa i permet ou fer sa Testaman pour ou pa tonm anba default provision anba Lalwa. Mersi Mr Chair.
Nou’n propoz Profeser, i ava propoz en lamannman avek Lartik 260, ki mon krwar i ava reponn sa kestyon ki ti ganny poze pli boner, a savwar kisisa, ki mannyer nou pour drafte li pour ki en relasyon domestik pa neseserman bezwen ant en zonm ek en fanm pour li kapab valab. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you Mr Chair. The proposal would read as follows. It involves basically the removal of some words from the text on the screen. In paragraph 1 in this Code, ‘’the qualifying relationship means either a marriage or a domestic relationship between 2 persons of full age and capacity characterized by stability and continuity. ‘’ That we believe- Mr Chair meets the requirements of the question that will necessarily be a consequentials following that change in Language in this provision. Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
Thank Professor. Ok eski sa i agreab pour bann Manm? Ok, dakor. So nou ava pran en desizyon alor lo Property Orders ki Lartik 258 ziska 260 parey in ganny amande. Mon a demann tou Manm ki an faver? Okenn Manm ki kont? Madanm Clerk.
MADAM CLERK
Mersi Mr Chair. 19 Manm in vot an faver e personn kont. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Madanm Clerk. Savedir Seksyon Property Orders Lartik 258 ziska 260 parey in ganny amande. In ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair swivan progresyon nou Kod, nou prezan pas lo zanfan. E antretan zot ava vwar ki nou’n perdi 100 Lartik ki vakan ant 261 ek 368. Nou komans donk avek Lartik 369. E la nou retourn prensipalman dan Kod oparavan. Me osi i annan serten landrwa kot nou’n pran provizyon dan Children Act ki nou’n anmennen.
I annan en bon pe diferans ant Kod aktyel avek sa nouvo Kod. Prensipalman akoz bokou bann Lartik dan Kod aktyel ki dan sa 261 ziska 368, ti annan pour fer avek distenksyon ant zanfan Lezitim ek zanfan Ilezitim, zanfan adultérant eksetera.
E desizyon ki ti’n ganny pran, e ki mon krwar i en desizyon ki modern, se tir sa distenksyon ant zanfan Lezitim, Ilezitim. Tir sa distenksyon ant kot sa enn ki’n ne dan ladilter i ganny zis lanmwatye par bann lezot eksetera. Alor tousala in disparet.
E avek sa en bon pe Lartik in bezwen disparet. Nou komans donk avek 369, e sa se definisyon en zanfan. Set en desandans dan premye Degre avek ki sorti avek en lot dimoun. E dan ka en zanfan ki adopte, se en zanfan premye Degre son paran adoptif. Pa krwar i annan gran problenm la. sa Lartik 369 ek 370 in ganny highlight an zonn, savedir zot nouvo, zot in ganny nouvo Lartik.
E i en seri definisyon pour met sa ki swiv an konteks. Tou zanfan i annan Stati egal. E sa se akoz nou’n tir lezitimite ek lllégitimité ek zot drwa ek zot obligasyon i sorti dan sa relasyon ki zot annan avek zot paran.
Welfare in best interest of the child, Onorab Loze a kontan vwar ki la nou’n servi sa 2 konsep. I premye konsiderasyon, ler sa ki i annan pour fer avek ladministrasyon sa Kod an relasyon avek miner ek zanfan. Oubyen tou bann lezot keksoz ki i annan pour fer avek guardianship en zanfan.
Welfare ek lentere- en zanfan an partikilye dan son sirkonstans partikilye i bezwen ganny konsidere. E non pa zanfan an zeneral dan sirkonstans an zeneral. E nou’n fer- nou’n azout en definisyon ‘’welfare’’. E sa propozisyon in sorti dan extended Bills Committee ki nou ti gannyen poudir fer sir nou konnen kisisa ki nou pe dir ler nou ti dir ‘’welfare.’’ Akoz Kod annan de fwa ti koz lo ‘’maintenance’’, annan de fwa ti koz lo ‘’welfare’, annan de fwa lo bann lezot mo. Alor nou’n standardiz li dan welfare. Se tou bann keksoz ki i annan pour fer avek en zanfan; access, care, custody, maintenance ek education. Parey zot tou zot konnen, ler i annan en Lord Custody ki ganny fer devan Tribinal Lafanmir, sa i ganny swiv par 2 lezot Lord. Enn se maintenance ki sa enn ki pa ganny custody i bezwen donnen ek access ki sa enn ki pa’n ganny custody i ganny drwa pour li annan.
371 nou retourn dan Kod. Mon pe zis rode- wi 371 la, i 371 dan Kod. Donk la prezan Kod ansanm dan nou- dan current Code.
En zanfan i bezwen annan loner ek respe pour son gardyen. Nou’n tire konsep paran akoz i annan serten zanfan ki bann wards. Alor nou’n- etann donnen ki ankor enn fwa parey nou pour vwar taler nou’n moderniz Lalwa Guardianship. Akoz konmela Lalwa Guardianship i tre oryante ver papa. Se papa toultan oubyen mari ki i annan premye drwa.
An modernisent sa Kod nou’n egaliz drwa papa ek manman e nou’n donn zot parey. Se pour sa rezon ki nou’n bezwen fer sa nouvo definisyon guardians.
MR SPEAKER
Kontinyen Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. 372 i ankor menm Lartik ki konmela. En zanfan i anba lotorite son paran ziska ler sa zanfan i vin en adilt. Ek en zanfan ki en miner pa pour kit lakaz son paran san permisyon son paran.
E 373 sa i vin ki mannyer ou pour prouv ou parante. Ki mannyer ou pour prouve lekel ki ou manman, lekel ki ou papa. E ou pour fer sa par bann fe relevan. Oubyen par montre ki ou annan sa leta, ou posed sa leta ki ou en zanfan sa koup. Oubyen ou en zanfan sa msye, oubyen ou en zanfan sa madanm.
E la 374 i en nouvo lartik akoz in annan en sanzman. Konmela nou Lalwa i dir ki en zanfan ki’n ne pandan en maryaz i prezimen annan mari son manman koman son papa, i en prezonpsyon legal.
Me etandonnen ki nou pe elarzi sa konsep pour osi pran konsiderasyon zanfan ki’n ne dan en menaz. Nou’n bezwen sanz 374 pour dir ki en zanfan i ganny konsevwar pandan maryaz oubyen pandan relasyon domestik an menaz son paran; i annan son spouse, sa 2 spouse si i dan en maryaz. Oubyen sa 2 partner si en relasyon domestik ki paran sa zanfan. Donk i pa zis en prezonpsyon paternite, me i en prezonpsyon maternite osi, tou lede. E sa set en nouvote.
375; en zanfan i ganny drwa anmenn tou bann laprev neseser pour montre pour pardon 1 paran i kapab anmenn tou bann laprev neseser pour montre ki i pa en paran sa zanfan. Sa se sa ki nou apel ‘des aveux. Avan sa nou ti apel li ‘des aveux de paternité’. Akoz se zis papa ki ti pour kapab fer li, la aprezan nenport ki paran i kapab fer li.
Si ou pe dir ki sa piti pa pour ou, ou bezwen al Ankour e anmenn okenn laprev pour montre sa. E la kot DNA i antre, Lakour i kapab ganny donn en direksyon pour disan oubyen other bodily sample. E sa i en lot pour en DNA test pour montre lekel ki paran sa zanfan. E Lakour i kapab ordonn-en. Lakour i kapab ordonn-en, give a direction pour ki en dimoun i donn sa bodily samples pour fer en test. Ozordi Lakour napa sa Pouvwar. Lakour- DNA i bezwen ganny fer ler tou lede parti i tonm dakor. E dan bokou ka sirtou si ou pe sey avoid ou responsabilite ou pa tonm dakor. E donk i annan en- i annan problenm ki arive. La sa pe donn Lakour Lotorite pour fors en DNA test dan en resers paternite oubyen- zeneralman se paternite.
Akoz i ase senp pour montre lekel ki manman. Akoz i annan tou sort rikord maternite, donk i senp. Papa ki en problenm. Akoz si papa pa’n deklar zanfan, zanfan i bezwen al Ankour pour fer en deklarasyon.
Lakour a nenport ki moman révoque en direksyon. Se pa akoz in ordonn en keksoz ki i pa kapab révoquer si i annan bon rezon.
E si en dimoun la i enteresan, si Lakour i donn en direksyon pour fer en DNA test dizon ek sa dimoun, i pa fer sa keksoz, lakour i kapab draw inferences, e i kapab dir ou pe saye akoz ou papa.
Desandans zanfan; Setadir ou en zanfan tel dimoun, i ganny prouve par ou sertifika nesans, ou papye laz, i kler. Akoz lo la i ava annan non ou manman, e si ou papa in deklar ou, i ava annan non ou papa osi. Si napa en sertifika nesans, en birth certificate, en papye laz, ou a bezwen prouv en posesyon D’état. Ou bezwen prouve ki ou ganny rekonnet koman zanfan sa koup, oubyen zanfan sa papa.
E sa ou kapab prouv li dan fason ki ganny set out dan Lartik 377, ki i annan ase koensidans levidans pour montre ki ou, ou piti sa dimoun. E sa bann fe prensipal ki ou kapab anmennen, se premyerman ki toultan ou’n port non sa dimoun ki ou paran. Oubyen ki ou paran sa dimoun in tret ou koman son zanfan. E in provide pour ou ledikasyon, in donn pour ou maintenance, in donn ou en komansman dan lavi. Oubyen menm ki sosyete in toultan rekonnet ki ou piti sa papa, oubyen sa papa se li menm li ou papa. Oubyen ki lafanmir in toultan tret ou.
E la enn bann fason prensipal pour montre paternite se liv lanterman. Lo son dernyen paz toultan ou mete lekel son bann zanfan, his children so and so, bap fini! Enn fwa ki sa in fer, it’s excellent proof e donk sa set en fason. Sa se lafason pour ou montre dan labsans DNA ki i annan, ki ou kapab, ki sa se ou parante.
378 personn pa kapab claim en Stati ki pa lo son birth certificate. Ou napa drwa al kont sa dokiman piblik ki montre ki ou piti en tel. Me, ler ou fer en des aveux de paternité oubyen recherche de paternité, sa set en leksepsyon. Natirelman ou bezwen kapab fer li si ou pe al montre ki se pa partner ou manman ki ou papa, me en lot dimoun. Pour ou konteste sa prezonpsyon ki nou fek vwar taler, i en leksepsyon a lartik 378.
Si ou napa en birth certificate, oubyen ou napa posesyon Leta, ou pa kapab prouve. Oubyen si ou’n ganny anrezistre anba en lot non, oubyen si ou en zanfan paran ki ou pa konnen, la ou kapab anmenn levidans oral. Ou pa bezwen anmenn en dokiman an ekrir pour ou montre, pour ou sey prouve lekel ki ou paran.
Me sa pa pour ganny admet li tousel, a mwens ki i annan 1 ant 2 keksoz. En komansman de preuves par ekrir, i.e providing writing providing initial proof. Sa set en dokiman ki sorti kot sa dimoun kont lekel ou pe konteste ki’n vin kot ou.
Par egzanp ou annan en let ki sa dimoun ki ou pe dir ou papa, in ekrir ou e in sinyen ladan ‘’Your Dad par egzanp. Sa i ava vin en writing providing initial proof. Akoz i en- i fer en fason ki sa ki ou pe dir i vre. Akoz ou kapab annan en pti sipor par en dokiman. Malgre ki sa dimoun kekfwa in mor, oubyen si i annan prezonpsyon. Oubyen lezot fason idantifye dan en fason permanan ki sifizaman enportan pour Lakour aksepte. Vwala definisyon writing providing initial proof, dokiman later, Rezis, bann papye lafanmir. Par egzanp annan de fwa dan letan lontan dan bokou lakaz ti annan en Labib ek lo son premye paz ti ekrir tou bann non bann zanfan eksetera. Sa se bann fason ki ou ti a kapab prouv sa.
Okenn dokiman ki sorti kont enn bann dimoun konsernen ki ti annan en lentere dan sa zafer.
Laprev ki ou pa, ou pa zanfan en dimoun ki pe dir ki ou son piti. Ou kapab anmenn levidans dan nenport ki mwayen. Akoz ou pe sey prouv en negativ. Zot pa kapab fors ou rod levidans kot levidans pa aksepte. Se pour sa rezon ki son nivo laprev i pli ba.
Napa okenn preskripsyon 380 (1) i nouvo. Malgre ki nou pa’n highlight li, 380 (1) i nouvo, napa preskripsyon pour en zanfan etablir son parante. Konmela ou bezwen fer li dan en peryod 1an depi lanmor ou papa si ou pa’n fer li pandan son vivan.
A nenport ki moman en zanfan ki pa’n ganny deklare i kapab al Ankour e dir avek Lakour, ‘’mon anvi en deklarasyon ki en tel i mon papa.’’ Ou bezwen fer sa pandan son vivan e oubyen dan lespas 1an depi son lanmor. Si ou fer li pli tar you’re gone. Sa ki nou pe fer la, nou pe propoze se ki napa preskripsyon. Ou pa ganny limite dan sa peryod 1an, ou kapab fer li a nenport ki moman.
HON JEAN-FRANÇOIS FERRARI
(Off-Mic)
And what is the standard of proof?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Standard of proof se ‘balance of probabilities.’ I en Sivil. I pli probab ki non, ki i ou papa oubyen i pli probab ki non ki i pa ou papa.
E sa case pour al etablir ou paternite oubyen ou maternite, ou Stati pa kapab ganny anmennen par ou zeritye, a mwens ki ou’n mor. E pandan ki ou ti en miner ou pour en peryod 5an depi ki ou’n vin en adilt.
E si ou ti’n komans sa case apre ou’n mor, avan ki i fini, ou zeritye i kapab kontinyen avek. Sa drwa i personnel, i aplik zis pour ou. I pa pour aplik pour okenn lezot dimoun. Ou pa kapab dir be ti annan mon ser osi, e li i ava fer son case li menm.
Si ou ankor en miner ou paran- dizon ou pe rod paternite, ou manman i kapab anmenn sa dan ou- dan son ka oubyen ou guardian pandan ki ou ankor en miner. E ou kapab anmenn sa- sa case i kapab ganny anmennen ler ou ankor en miner, ou pa bezwen esper ariv 18an. Se sa ki 381 pe dir.
Si ou anvi prouve lekel ki ou manman, ou bezwen prouv confinement ou manman ek lidantite sa zanfan ki in delivre. Bezwen prouve ki in al maternite eksetera.
383 la nou pas lo en lot size Mr Chair. E sa se lekel ki annan drwa lo propriyete en zanfan. Sa i ankor enn fwa- nou’n standardiz li.
Ozordi dan Kod aktyel se zis papa ki i annan- pandan maryaz se zis papa ki i annan drwa lo propriyete son zanfan miner. E apre divors se sa enn ki’n ganny custody oubyen apre lanmor, sa enn ki sirvivan.
Me la ki nou pe dir se tou lede. Tou lede whether i pandan maryaz, oubyen apre divors. Oubyen apre lanmor, natirelman i annan zis enn. I ava annan drwa pour enjoy propriyete zot zanfan miner. Eskiz mwan.
En legzanp se, si en zanfan miner i ganny en tiket lotri parey in arive resaman. Se son paran ki pour annan enjoyment sa larzan pandan ki i miner. Zot pour bezwen rann kont avek li ler i ariv 18an, ki zot in fer ek sa larzan. Nou’n met li labank, i la aprezan ou larzan in double. Oubyen nou’n aste en lakaz lo ou non, oubyen nou’n diverti kontan, sorry larzan in fini. Zot pour bezwen rann kont avek sa zanfan.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN (Off-Mic)
Zot kapab diverti kontan?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Wi. They shall have the enjoyment of the property. Subject to being sued later by the child.
E sa drwa pa pour pran kont propriyete ki sa zanfan in gannyen atraver zot travay. Oubyen ki’n ganny lese par en lot paran- en granparan dizon in les zot sa. Anba Konstitisyon ki paran pa pour enjoy. Setadir si ou granpapa oubyen ou tonton i les en keksoz pour ou, e i dir, sa i pour ou. Ou paran napa drwa lo la, la zot napa drwa enjoy byen en zanfan ki miner.
Bann kondisyon, se sa bann, sa enn premye – use of referees, nou ava vwar en pti pe pli tar. Mon pa anvi retard nou travay. Me si i annan en dimoun ki i annan Zwisans lo byen sa zanfan. Sa i ava anpes son paran servi son byen, sa ki i pe dir.
Obviously sa larzan i bezwen ganny servi pour mentenans e ledikasyon sa zanfan si i annan okenn lentere. Arrears i bezwen ganny peye. Epi si sa zanfan i mor, son depans fineray i a- oubyen son depans lopital avan i mor, i bezwen ganny peye avan.
En paran ki’n kont lekel en divors in ganny prononse, pa pour annan drwa enjoy propriyete son zanfan. Mon poz la Mr Chair. Mon pa konpran akoz. Akoz si sa paran ki’n kont lekel divors in ganny prononse, i ganny custody sa zanfan. Akoz ki se lot ki pa’n ganny custody ki pour kapab, me pa li. Mon pa konpran sa enn propozisyon. E mon ti a kontan ki nou kekfwa ganny en leklersisman lo la. Professor why- what is the reasoning behind 383 (4)? In a divorce, if the person against whom the Decree has been pronounced, obtains custody of the child, why should they not have the enjoyment of the property? But the other one who has not had custody, does?
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
(Off-Mic)
It doesn’t say that…
HON BERNARD GEORGES
No it doesn’t. But it follows.
MR SPEAKER
Alright. Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you Mr Chair. The- I think also there is a question about the meaning of ‘’against.’’ My feelings is that, if for instance a divorce is consensual or it flows from 5years living apart. Then, obviously there is a petitioner and a respondent, but that is rather different from the causes of divorce which are fault-based such as adultery. And was it uncomfortable, continuous absence or behind unreasonable behavior.
Perhaps that would follow. Those should be cases where the parental right is also lost. But the suggestion that should be related to guardianship rather than to the dissolution may result their problem. Thank Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Honorable Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Thank Mr Chair. In fact I’m looking at the current Code. The same provision is in article 386. And in 1975- well in 1804 when the Code was drafted by- in France, divorce was pretty much fault-based.
And in 1975 when Chloros drafted ours, we were still under the Matrimonial Causes Act of 1937, which was still adultery cruelty desertion, so fault-based. It’s only 1993 that we moved to no fault divorce – irretrievable breakdown. So I think this was probably penalizing people ‘against’– who had lost a fault-based divorce. So therefore had no right to the enjoyment of the- but that’s gone now and I wonder whether we need to keep 4?
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Honorable Georges. Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Mr Chair I believe that is inappropriate approach that this is a reflection of the current Law, but it is clearly an historical remnants, so to speak, and certainly doesn’t fit well with the current divorce provisions. And divorce is a separate matter from guardianship. This right properly should follow from guardianship. Thank you Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Honorable Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair are we therefore saying that we will have to reword or remove 334, because the context is – was there a context ever to include it to the essence that qualifying the kind of divorce Decree that was given under the grounds which that divorce Decree was given, which qualifies that one of the spouses against which the Decree was given should not be benefiting from the matrimonial property? Separating it from guardianship? Was there a condition that was imposing in relation to that? I have another question Mr Chair that perhaps I can put it now since I’ve got the floor?
MR SPEAKER
Non, let’s finish the whole section and then we can- yes.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
And then we will come back to it. Ok Chair. Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
I just wanted to take anything on what we are discussing right now. Ok Honorable Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Alor nou pe tir 383(4), 383 sub-article 4 akoz i en historical thing ki nou pa bezwen.
MR SPEAKER
Can we move on?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
- 384. 384 i dir ki propriyete zanfan ki ankor miner avek leksepsyon propriyete ki zot in gannyen par en donasyon i ava ganny administre jointly par sa 2 paran ek ler sa de paran i pa gardyen sa zanfan, par sa dimoun ki’n ganny apwente konman gardyen. Nou ava vwar taler ki se pa toultan paran ki otomatikman gardyen sa zanfan. Dan serten sirkonstans par egzanp ler zanfan i al deor zot bezwen ganny en lot gardyen.
La i al, paran i bezwen rann kont pou propriyete ek bann income ki zot napa drwa enjoy e zot pou rann kont selman si zot annan drwa lazwisans lo sa propriyete.
Apre ki en maryaz i ganny dizourd par lanmor, ladministrasyon sa byen zanfan ki lo sa enn ki ankor vivan, lo sa paran ki ankor vivan. E kot i annan en konfli lentere Lakour i ava apwent en administrater ad hoc, setadir pou sa – pou en keksoz an partikilye. Ler i annan en konfli lentere ant paran ek zanfan. Par egzanp paran i annan lanmwatye en byen ek lot lanmwatye sa byen i lo non zanfan ki miner. I annan en konfli lentere la, alor bann zanfan ki miner zot lentere pou ganny pran par en gardyen ki Lakour pou apwente ad hoc, pou sa rezon spesifik. Tousala se dan Lalwa mannyer i ete. Nanryen pa’n sanze.
Kot bann paran i annan drwa zwir propriyete en zanfan, zot napa drwa vann okenn pake. Si zot deside ou gard sa pake pou zot menm, zot bezwen retourn enn parey. E en evalyasyon i bezwen ganny fer par en expert ki ganny apwente par Lakour e ki ganny sermante par Registrar en Lakour. E zot ava pey en valer estimen si zot pa kapab retourn sa keksoz dan son kondisyon, oubyen enn parey. Vwala Mr Chair. Sa se sa pti bout lo ladministrasyon bann byen zanfan ki ankor anba laz par zot paran.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Nou ava pran bann entervansyon. Nou a konmans ek Onorab Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman mon pou retourn lo en pwen ki Onorab Georges in souleve.
Premye pwen i konsern sa dimoun ki ganny guardianship. E oparavan isi Sesel sete sa papa ki annan guardianship. Me la aprezan ki nou pe fer, nou pe fer ki se tou le de. Papa oubyen manman i kapab annan guardianship. En konsern ki mon ti le klarifye ; nou’n fini fer 371 an desandan ok. Se sa ki nou’n – akoz mon krwar letan ou ti pe koz go through 371 onwards Onorab Georges ti fer sa pwen regarding sa. Prezan ki mon ti oule kestyonn li lo la se ki dan sirkonstans kot sa bann paran i travel ek sa zanfan, e i annan serten pei ki si ou pe travel ek en zanfan miner, ou bezwen lotorizasyon papa. So mon krwar nou bezwen fer sir ki nou lans en lapel deor ki pa vedir si manman i annan guardianship ki papa pa devret. Akoz mon par egzanp konnen Sid Afrique si ou pe travel ek en zanfan miner Sid Afrique ou bezwen dir poudir sa papa in otorize pou sa zanfan kit pei. Mon ti oule zis met sa.
Apre dezyenmman konsern sa ; konsern parenthood, mon’n deza rankontre en ka ase – very curious case kot en papa ti le fer en tes paternite me manman pa dakor. Zot in ganny en zanfan, sa zanfan in ne e manman, zis manman ki’n deklar zanfan. Eski ou pe dir nou – akoz mon ti’n menm deza call ou- sey call ou menm ou nou ti pe diskit sa ka, eski la ou pe dir mwan ki dan sirkonstans prezan ki egziste dan bann ka koumsa, ozordi avek Code Civil, sa papa li i pou kapab li prezan ale e fer sa tes paternite si i anvi ganny ateste konman papa sa zanfan? Akoz obviously zot relasyon pa pou kalifye konman en relasyon ménage given letan. Mon oule zis ki nou klarifye sa, pou ki bann dimoun deor i kapab konpran. Mersi Mr Chairman.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Pillay. Onorab Sophola.
HON NOLINE SOPHOLA
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair Lartik 380 mon kontan ki in dir napa en timeframe. Akoz mon dir sa, se ki dan lepase ler ti annan zis 1an ki apre lanmor sa papa sirtou, kot bann zanfan ler i al claim, zot in ganny dir poudir letan in fini pase.
E nou tou nou konnen dan konteks Sesel, ler maler i arive ki nou tou nou bizi nou bliye. E ler nou mazinen in tar. Me pou mwan ler nou pe dir napa en timeframe, mon pe regarde si pa en laport ouver konmsi ziske konbyen letan nou pe donnen avan i nou kapab claim?
Me lot kote ler mon regard Lartik 370(3) mon pe regard ler nou pe dir the best interest of a particular child. 370(3). Eski- nou pe koz lo zanfan la. Nou pe pran tou bann zanfan normal.
Me kote nou bann zanfan avek special disabilities i antre? Akoz parfwa en zanfan avek dezabilite, tou le de son paran in mor, e i kot byen pou zot. E nou remarke ki sa bann zanfan zot byen i ganny abize e zot, zot ganny neglize. Kote – ki provizyon ki nou pe fer ki sa bann zanfan pou ganny proteze dan sa travay ki nou pe fer? Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab John Hoareau.
HON JOHN HOAREAU
Mersi Mr Chairman. Mon pwen ti egzakteman en pti pe lo laliny ki Onorab Sophola in koze lo 380. Mon pe panse ki apre en, petet kekfwa 1an ti en pti pe tro kourt. Me petet si nou ti kapab elonz li, fer li vin 2an. Akoz apre sa petet sa dimoun in – sa fanmir li menm petet in fer en closure dan son lavi apre en lanmor. Me apre ou vwar en dimoun ki vini ki vin reklanm paternite e petet sa byen in ganny itilize dan en lot fason. Prezan sa bann ki reste deryer i santi zot, zot bezwen redres sa sityasyon.
MR SPEAKER
Petet si mon krwar si mon ganny ou, ou pe mean prolonze. Pa ‘’elonze?’’. Wi. Mersi Onorab. Onorab Ernesta.
HON PAUL ERNESTA
Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon refer lo 374 kot Onorab Georges in dir nou sa Lartik annefe ki dir kot en zanfan ki ne dan en domestic relation dan maryaz i presume pou ki i zanfan sa papa konmsi.
E annou met en senaryo ki lo 375 kot en zanfan apre pli tar parey ou menm ou’n dir kapab 4an apre i ganny en let ki dir ‘’From your dad’’. Me li i ti toultan krwar ki Paul Ernesta son papa en legzanp. Me mon pa vwar ladan akoz la mon pe get pli lwen kote asesyon pli tar, si sa zanfan, si i annan okenn bout kot sa zanfan li prezan i annan dwa pourswiv son paran pou dir ki ou’n deprive me mon dwa pou mwan konn mon vre papa. Petet si sa papa li petet pli tar li i ti annan en pti larzan li me prezan li i perdi dan sa konteks si sa i le ka. Thank you Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Esparon.
HON REGINA ESPARAON
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mwan ler mon pe regard Lartik 372(2) ki dir ki en zanfan miner pa devret kit lakour son paran san permisyon sa paran. Ok. Onorab Arissol non pa sa laliny ki mon pe al ladan mwan. Ki mon pe dir mwan Mr Chairman, ler mon pe get sa lartik mon pe mazin bann ka, en ka resan la ki’n arive dan nou distrik ki en zanfan in ganny pran par sosyal avek son paran. Me sa paran pa ti an faver sa. Eski demen sa paran pa kapab vire dir poudir unlawfully ou’n pran sa zanfan ek mwan, kan sa zanfan son landrwa i devret dan mon lakour?
Me selman nou konnen ki poudir i annan en kantite rezon pou welfare sa zanfan ki zanfan i ganny pran met dan bann foster home. Ki mon ti pe mazinen dan sa ka la, eski i annan e lot Act parey dir Social Protection Act ki pou kouver sa paran anba la ? Ki demen sa paran pa kapab vire dir mon kapab anmenn ou Ankour akoz i en drwa ki enkli dan Civil Code konmkwa mon zanfan i devret dan mon lakour e mon pa’n otoriz ou pou pran sa zanfan avek mwan! Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Aglae.
HON EGBERT AGLAE
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mwan mon annan serten rezervasyon kot i konsern rekonnet zanfan. Wi tou zanfan i bezwen ganny rekonnet parey. Sa mon dakor avek. Me i annan bann lenstans – petet Chairman Bills ouswa panel i a eklersi en pti pe lo sa, ki ou fer dan sa sirkonstans parey.
Kot in annan zanfan ki’n ne, ler in ne i pa’n vwar son papa. Premyerman. E son manman pa’n zanmen dir li sa son papa. Ok ? E in vwar li petet i annan en lot, en boper ki li in pran li konman son papa. Ok. E prezan sa papa reel ki sipoze pou sa zanfan biolozikman papa biolozik li in antre dan en relasyon avek en madanm kot in marye, e in fer plis zanfan. In fer detrwa zanfan osi. E sa papa li i mor. Papa biolozik i mor e san sa madanm marye konnen poudir i annan en lot zanfan ki sa papa biolozik i annan an deor.
E ki en pe letan apre pli tar, bokou lannen apre ler bann zanfan in grandi zot pe konmans separ propriyete sakenn, e la sa enn ki li in al fer serten resers in vwar poudir ouswa petet, apre son manman in ale in dir li be ou papa tel dimoun be selman in mor. Prezan li i konmans en prosesis vin reklanm serten par dan lavi sa lot dimoun. E ki li sa madanm marye ki son msye in mor li, i pa okouran zis i vini i ganny en sel parey en sok poudir sa ti koumsa.
E dan sa ka la ki remors ouswa pou al devan Lakour akoz i annan en lensidan en pe parey mon pe eksplike la ki egziste, ki rekour ki sa madanm marye la i pou gannyen e sa zanfan osi ? Eski li i pou annan drwa vin fer serten proklanmasyon pou claim pou dir li osi i annan en par ladan.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab William.
HON WAVEN WILLIAM
Mersi Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker. Lefe ki nou pe evolye e dan sa lespri kot i annan en sanson ki dir ‘’Ton père n’est pas ton père mais ton père ne sait pas’’. E an menm tan nou antann bann granmoun dir poul i eklo kannar, mon ti a kontan si Mr Chairman Bills Committee ava eksplik nou, eski lefe menm ki aletranze dan bann pei nou vwar bann diferan personnalite pe pourswiv kanmarad pou bann claim ki parfwa pa rezonnab. Me akoz en dimoun in kree serten larises i annan dimoun i anvi zis profite. Ki petet panse panel ouswa Bills Chairman vizavi paternity test? Si petet pa devret mandatwar ozordi lo letap devlopman kot nou’n arive, avek bann plizyer leksperyans nou pe gannyen vizavi mandatwar pou fer en DNA test.
Rezon mon pe dir sa se ki ou kapab ganny bann ka. Par egzanp kot paran lezitim ki’n marye parey en pti pe ki Onorab Aglae pe dir kot zanfan in ganny fer an deor. Epi zis en moman i annan bann reklanm baze lo si papa in mor ki vini. E sa desizyon i reste parey dan Lalwa pe dir avek Ziz. Me mon pe zis demande ozordi nou konman bann Lezislater, eski petet nou pa devret pronons nou en pti pe pli direk lo la? Eski pa devret mandatwar? Sa i mon kestyon. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab William. Onorab Lemiel.
HON SYLVANNE LEMIEL
Mersi Mr Chair. Dan ka kot nou pe koz – mon pe mazinen sa pou tonm anba 371 or 372. Dan ka kot nou annan en zanfan, depi pti baba manman in agree avek papa, konmsi papa i pe pran responsabilite sa piti, me lo en Lagreman mityel. Pa ti dan en maryaz sa. Zot in menaz, relasyon in kase, Lagreman in ganny fer ki papa ki’n take care of zanfan. Me sa papa in dan en relasyon menaz avek en lot dimoun. Ozordi i arive ki sa papa – en pe letan in kite ek sa madanm ki ti in al menaz avek. Me in kit sa zanfan avek sa madanm menaz li in al reste aryer. Sa zanfan arive i dan son laz dan teenager, ozordi i en teenager i santi ki i pe ganny maltrete kot sa nou pou dir li gardyen la prezan sa madanm. Menm si i pa ti legal.
Ki rekour akoz si sa manman pe sey al partou e lord in donnen par Tribinal ki sa papa ki’n ganny sa zanfan me ozordi sa gardyen ki pe okip sa zanfan. Sa zanfan i santi pe ganny maltrete e menm pe mazin commit swisid, ki arive dan sa bann ka? Ki rekour la sa manman, manman biolozik, ki kapab fer? Me zis pou lenformasyon kot sa manman pe ale i pa pe trouv laklerte li en. In menm retourn kot Tribinal i pa pe trouv laklerte. Sa zanfan i sey sove pou al kot sa manman e sa zanfan in ganny threatened. In ganny dir si ou pa tournen nou pou fer tel keksoz. E zanfan in bezwen retournen e i pe viv li dan en pe dilenm. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Ramkalawan.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Mersi bokou Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman mwan mon annan enn de klarifikasyon ki mon ti ava kontan. Premyerman 370(d)(a) akoz ki nou annan sa laliny, ‘’In the administration and application of this code, in relation to minors and children?’’ Mon pe zis kalkile lefe ki a minor is somebody who is under the age of 18 and is it not a repetition? Because a minor is a child. Parski nou’n fini rekonnet ki poudir en child is under 18. Ok ? So mon pe regarde si napa en pti repetisyon.
Lo sa kote DNA pou bann zonm parey Onorab Pillay in leve. Mon osi tou sa ti enn bann size ki konsern mwan parski i pa zis en zanfan. I pa zis en kestyon pou regarde si en dimoun i papa en zanfan pou rezon welfare, maintenance e tousala. Me i annan bann sirkonstans kot i vre ki relasyon pa’n mars parey i devret marse. En zonm in fer son partner ansent. E apre sa, sa relasyon in kase pandan sa lansentman. E apre sa be selman i konnen ki poudir sa zanfan pou li. Parski li ki ti avek sa madanm letan i ti ansent. Me aprezan sa papa pli tar i come to his senses e li i anvi zwe son rol papa. E letan i apros sa madanm, sa madanm i pini li poudir, ‘’Mon pa enterese avek ou. Sa i mon zanfan!’’ Be li i konnen ki poudir sa i son zanfan. Eski i kler dan sa anba 375 ki poudir si en papa dan en sirkonstans i fer en aplikasyon devan Lakour, Lakour pou kapab donn en lord pou ki sa zanfan i kapab ganny en blood sample, avek sa zanfan, pou regarde si sa papa, baze lo la laplikasyon sa papa pou konfirmen ki poudir sa papa, sa zonm i aktyelman papa sa zanfan. Pou li kapab ede maintain sa zanfan. Mon krwar sa i enportan.
Anba 384, anba 384 letan nou pe koz lo enjoyment of the property, spesyalman 384(1)(b) ek (c). Letan pe dir ‘‘They shall be accountable both for the property and the income of the property, which they are not entitled to enjoy. And (c), they shall be accountable for the property only if entitled’’ ensidswit. To whom are they accountable? Parski mon pa pe vwar la to whom are they accountable. Si i annan en sistenm kot letan i ariv serten keksoz parey kot Lakour ki annan en serten oversight role. Who has the oversight role?
E parski nou kapab trouv nou pou servi en pe legzanp ki Onorab Georges in servi. Kot en zanfan i ganny en jackpot, en ta milyon e apre sa wi i mete they shall be accountable me selman the accountability pa pe ganny fer regilyerman. E letan in ariv pli tar dekouver ki poudir sa ki sa property of minor children in ganny abize e sa zanfan i end up avek nanryen. So mon ti ava kontan ganny sa.
E apre mon pou osi siport sa pwen ki lo 380. Mon krwar ki i pa pou byen lo 381 pou dir there’s no prescription. Mon osi tou mon krwar Mr Chairman i bezwen annan kek preskripsyon lo en peryod letan pandan ki en zanfan i etabli lekel ki son paran. Pa akoz mon pa anvi ki en dimoun konnen lekel ki son paran.
Me selman spesyalman dan ka lanmor e mon pa konnen si i kapab defini sa, ki petet i ava annan en preskripsyon pou sa zanfan konn etabli son paran, lekel son paran an term leritaz ; oubyen e lot kote en peryod letan pou en zanfan kapab etabli lekel son paran. Me selman ki sa size leritaz pa pou rantre.
Parski parey mon pe dir si la pou le moman i 1an. I 1an e pandan en peryod 1an an prensip mon’n kapab fini avek sa bann zafer leritaz, spesyalman si petet sa fanmir, sa fanmir dizon i en fanmir ki stab, kot in annan en maryaz e sa msye ek son madanm zot in la. E dapre zot, zot annan de zanfan. E petet zot pa ni menm pou fer en testaman. Petet zot pou panse ki poudir be nou annan nou zis de zanfan. E i arive ki papa i mor par egzanp. E otomatikman zot pou dir be regarde i annan de zanfan e alor la i la, la fason ki nou pou partaz keksoz.
E sa partaz lekel ki pou erit kwa, i kapab ganny fer vitman sa. Me la pou le moman i dir avek ou 1an. 1an en dimoun i aparet i dir be mon annan tou laprev la ki poudir sa msye ki’n mor i mon papa. E alor la i vin en lot issue. Be dizon e zot kapab sort li out whatever pandan 1an. Me Mr Speaker si i arive ki 5an pli tar, 5an pli tar letan, letan tou keksoz in fini ganny partaze e kekfwa osi sa manman in mor dizon. Ki aprezan sa de zanfan ki la zot, zot in ganny sakenn zot bout. E sa de in fini etabli tou keksoz in fini partaze, aprezan la i vin en lot zafer. 5an pli tar letan zot in fini put closure, zot in fini plere, la aprezan sa pti, pti i vini. Well sa lot dimoun kekfwa i en adilt, i vini i al claim paternite e aprezan ki pou arive ek sa bann byen ki’n partaze ? Konmsi la aprezan i retourn ankor lo drawing Board? Poudir be regarde ou’n ganny sa bout later be la aprezan, e in fer son lakaz tou li. Fini fer son lakaz tou son zafer. La aprezan nou bezwen regarde ki mannyer swa nou pou bezwen vann sa propriyete pou nou pa kapab – parski nou pa kapab partaz later. Nou bezwen vann sa propriyete pou nou ganny en sonm larzan pou kapab partaz a trwa.
Mwan mon krwar ki poudir i bezwen annan en preskripsyon. Parski dimoun i devret kapab osi move on avek zot lavi. E ki nou pa kapab toultan pe anpandan avek nou lavi. Ok ? E an plis ki sa nou pa kapab spesyalman anpandan avek nou lavi pou aksyon ki nou papa in fer. E li i pa’n pran son responsabilite.
Se pou sa rezon ki mwan mon ensiste ki i bezwen annan en preskripsyon. Nou kapab dir 3an, nou kapab dir 2an. Me selman mwan mon pou ensiste ki poudir anba 381(1) i bezwen annan en preskripsyon akoz nou pa kapab les sa ki’n mor, ki pa’n pran son responsabilite ki pa’n elve bann zanfan, ki pa’n pran swen avek sa zanfan pou les pli tar dan lavi letan keksoz in kalme, la aprezan pou li ganny disturb ankor.
Alor anba 381, under 381 I am insisting that there be a period of prescription. Or else nou pou kontinyen vin lesklav sa ki mor ki in fer e mwan mon pe move sa Mr Chairman akoz sansan nou pou annan dezord dan – nou kapab annan dezord dan sosyete e alor mwan mon anvi en serten lord. Mersi bokou.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Loze.
HON JOHAN LOZE
Mersi Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker lo sa kestyon preskripsyon ki Onorab Ramkalawan in propoze, pa ki mon kont me selman si nou ti kapab apre ki nou’n fer preskripsyon eski i posib pou kit en laport ouver pou en zanfan ki miner at the point of death of son paran. Akoz si zanfan i annan 5an ou pe donn li 3an pou li etabli son paternite, la klerman i pa realistik.
Prezan lo mon kestyon pou mwan, ki mon ti le raise, Lo sa size propriyete en miner. Mon ti zis anvi kestyonn Onorab Georges si i santi ki evantyelman nou kapab bouz dan direksyon trusteeship pou administre byen en miner. Akoz mon pa konfortab avek sa enjoyment laz ki en paran i annan lo byen son zanfan. At least i kapab ganny envestir in trust. Wi sa paran i kapab enjoy sa benefis, sa lentere ki sa kapital i prodwir. Be at least letan sa zanfan i ganny 18an si son kapital inisyal ti R1milyon i annan R1milyon, held in trust par son paran. Non pa in ganny depleted pou vin se pa acquire again dan lespri ki bokou dimoun pe koze lo kestyon lord.
E finalman sa ki mon ti anvi raise se i annan bokou lanfaz lo DNA test dan Civil Code ziska maintenant. Alors kestyon se eski Lakour li menm in etabli en proper rules of gathering evidence? Eski i annan en approved list of bann laboratwar kot sa bann test i kapab ganny fer? Akoz unlike sa bann keksoz ki ganny fer lopital la i fasil pou obtenir en DNA test kit. I annan an vant lo Alibaba ou kapab gannyen swab your own cheeks, anvoy dan nenport ki laboratwar, Nigeria e ou ganny ou larepons ki tailor made for you. So si nou pou annan en fason etabli going forward pou met lord dan sa zafer DNA osi la, ki mon vwar nou pe apir ase lourdman lo la.
Mr Speaker mon raise sa bann matters, akoz Sesel i en drol pei li. En dimoun i kapab claim en keksoz pou 42an e soudennman ou tann en zistwar landrover e tou keksoz i vir latet anba. Mersi Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Bon. Nou annan ankor de Manm ki’n lev lanmen. Nou ava pran sa de Manm. Onorab Georges eski ou pou ganny sans dan 15 minit reponn tou. Ok dakor. Onorab Larue.
HON FLORY LARUE
Mersi Mr Chair. Bonn apre midi. Mr Chair mwan par kont mon santi ki drwa en zanfan pou li etabli son paternite i devret indefinite. Mon pa krwar i devret annan okenn limitasyon lo la. Akoz sa adilt pa kapab desid pou li. Sa dimoun ki’n fer dezord ouswa ki’n deside fer en zanfan an deor son maryaz, li ki’n anmenn sa lo son fanmir. E menm si i mor sa zanfan li ki’n ne an deor i pa kapab sibir konsekans. Kantmenm i emosyonnel pou sa lot fanmir i pa son lafot. E mon krwar mannyer in ekrir la, ‘‘The right to prove parental descent is for the benefit of the child alone’’. Akoz li i trigger. Letan li i santi i annan en lentere. I annan en kantite dimoun ki dan sa bann sityasyon zot pa trigger pou zot al rod sa papa.
Apre i annan sa kote laz osi. En dimoun ki en pe aze dan son relasyon kot i annan gran zanfan, an deor son relasyon i fer en zanfan avek en lot madanm, en pti baba kan li i annan gran zanfan. Letan li sa zanfan i vin adilt e sa paran i mor 10an, 15an avan ki li i vin adilt, sa bann lezot gran zanfan zot, zot in ariv dan zot 40 tenn lannen. Me li prezan ki i ganny sa matirite pou li kapab al rod son paternite si son manman in deside pou pa dir li. Savedir deza li i pas en letan 20an avan ki li i vin en adilt pou li kapab al egzers son drwa. E wi pou vin en problenm pou sa lot fanmir ki zot in pas 20an depi ler sa papa in mor. Me selman ou pa kapab pran sa drwa avek sa zanfan pou li etabli son paternite. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Ghislain.
HON CHANTAL GHISLAIN
Mr Speaker mon pe zis lir en mesaz ki de madanm sorti distrik Mont Fleuri in anvoy mwan. In preski ansanm en. I dir par egzanp ler en zanfan – konmsi i paret mwan sa ka i afekte enn sirtou ladan, apre lot in ekrir akoz li i konnen. Sa madanm i dir li in fer lakaz in fer sakrifis, in build. Pandan ki sa msye li in fer son – in al lot kote laba in fer zanfan avek sa lot madanm. E sa madanm li sa bann letan li sa lot madanm I mean, sa galan, li in monte desann Dubai, travel i pa’n save okenn larzan li and letan – malgre ki papa in sonny sa piti, konmsi sa papa in sonny sa piti akote li. Prezan ler sa zonm i mor sa i mal dapre zot ki sa lakaz i bezwen ganny vann ki zot oblize prezan pey sa zanfan ki sa msye in fer par kote. This is not fair.
Apre i dir pou ki i kapab sonny sa zanfan. And li sa dimoun i pe war ki sa nou pe ankouraz pou annan plis bann ka kot bann msye ou madanm i cheat lo kanmarad. And osi en madanm osi i kapab fer par ekspre si i konnen poudir en zonm i deza annan larzan, i pou fer sir i pou fer zanfan avek sa msye pour ki letan si sa msye i mor pou son zanfan ganny keksoz, menm si i ti pe sonnyen par kote. Sa – mersi Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Georges ou annan bokou. Sey bref posib mon annan en delegasyon ki’n deza ariv kot Lasanble pou mwan rankontre. As brief as possible – oubyen ou le en break ?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Ou anvi mon fer la ? Non, non mon pare fer li. Or mon par fer li taler, up to you. Se ou ki annan en commitment.
MR SPEAKER
Go ahead.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mon ti pe al dir ou vwar mannyer dimoun Mont Fleuri i dezord.
(laughter)
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mamelles nou pa vwar okenn sa bann problenm. Mamelles tou dimoun i viv byen.
(Interruption)
MR SPEAKER
Kontinyen Onorab.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mr Chairman i annan en keksoz ki toultan in fatig mwan e lamazorite bann kestyon ki’n ganny demande ozordi, ti a kapab ganny rezourd par en senp keksoz. Se ki tou papa ki ti fer en piti ti al anrezistre ti al deklar zot piti ti pou annan okenn sa bann problenm.
E isi Sesel malerezman nou’n antre dan en sityasyon kot manman i bezwen deklar son piti, papa li i deside si i anvi si i pa anvi. Si i pa anvi personn pa pou fatig li. Nou a bezwen ekrir en Civil Code san lartik zis pou cater pou li, akoz li i anvi son freedom. E apre nou pou pas en zournen isi pou sey met en Lalwa an mars zis akoz li in deside pa pran son responsabilite.
Mwan mon ti’n propoze, ler nou ti pe fer sa Code Civil ki nou ti obliz tou papa al deklar son piti. Si papa pa desann avek manman kot Leta Civil pou al deklare piti pa ganny deklare. Senp. E fifi – en ni..ni napa okenn problenm ankor.
E kot manman pa konnen lekel papa son piti, parey i arive e nou tou nou konnen zot a pez pause button. I ava donn en lalis tou bann dimoun ki kapab e i ava al rode.
(APPLAUSE)
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Ou vwar nou pe moderniz nou Lalwa, nou’n extend li pou bann relasyon an deor maryaz, menm de dimoun menm gender ki viv ansanm. Me nou ankor still annan en boul ki’n anmare ek nou lipye lo papa ki pa oule deklar zot piti. Mr Chair mon krwar nou bezwen serye e anvoy en mesaz tre kler laba deor, e fer Lalwa ki pa pou soutir sa bann mannev papa ki napa okenn responsabilite.
Alor, alor kot nou pou konmanse. Premyerman les mon konmans avek sa ki pli senp, DNA – yes Onorab Lakour i annan sa responsabilite toultan fer sir ki se li, se Lakour ler i fer en lord DNA, se Lakour ki dir kote sa pou ganny fer. I kapab fer li by agreement sa de parti. E si napa agreement Lakour i annan en database bann landrwa. E in any event annou pa bliy dernyen Lartik nou Code Civil. Dernyen Lartik nou Code Civil i donn Prezidan Larepiblik drwa fer S.I pou promouvwar sa Code Civil. E donk sa set enn bann keksoz ki kapab ganny fer par en S.I.
Travel guardianship Onorab Pillay, wi Mr Chair sa se en keksoz ki enportan. Ler en papa in deklar son piti e lo son birth certificate son non i aparet, i bezwen li osi apard li – manman osi i bezwen vin siny sa temporary appointment of guardianship pou les en lot dimoun, ki se swa enn parmi zot. Me non pa tou lede ansanm. Or en 3enm dimoun, en tonton, en tantin, en zanmi voyaz avek sa zanfan. I en temporary guardianship ou apwent li gardyen, pandan sa lepok ki sa zanfan pe travel. E si papa in deklare li osi i bezwen sinyen.
Eski si manman pa dakor, si manman pa dakor pou ede, eski sa zanfan i still kapab al fer en recherche de paternite? Larepons i wi. E la nou bezwen dir ki si manman, si papa i deklar en piti devan noter, akoz i pa’n deklar li ler sa piti ti ganny deklare kot Leta Civil e i vin deklar li bokou pli tar, i vin rekonnet li bokou pli tar, non sa piti pou sanze. E i pou pran non sa papa, selman si manman i dakor. Akoz papa i kapab dir mon pe deklar piti, me manman i dir sa piti in grandi avek mon non, mon pa anvi ki la aprezan i sanze.
Donk i annan sa soz. Manman i annan toultan en memiz lo sa ki pou arive. Me si manman pa dakor i anvi anpes en papa deklar son piti i pa pou kapab. Sa papa i kapab toultan al Ankour e rod en deklarasyon ki se li ki papa.
Timeframe pou recherche de paternite. I annan en divizyon lo la e mon konpran tou lede kote. Sa ki nou pe dir la pou le moman i annan en rezon akoz ti annan sa 1an selman. Se pou annan en closure vit. E sa in ganny entrodwir sa 1an dan Children Act. Avan sa i pa ti la. Dan Code Franse i pa ti la. se Children Act ki’n entrodwir sa e redwir li pou 1an e se pou fer sir ki – pou fer sir ki i annan closure.
Me nou’n vwar ki avek letan 1an i bokou tro kourt. I annan dimoun ki pa’n kapab fer en deklarasyon zot paternite dan sa peryod 1an depi ki zot papa in mor. Akoz by the time ki zot in konnen kekfwa zot pa isi or whatever in annan ka kot zot in tonm an deor enkli en ka seleb isi Sesel kot zot ti tonm 1 zour an deor.
E zot pa’n kapab prouve malgre ki levidans ti kler ki zot ti zanfan sa papa.
Eski nou devret annan en lot peryod? Oubyen eski nou devret les li ouver? Fodre toultan nou pran an konsiderasyon 2 keksoz. Enn rezon ki nou’n ouver li oubyen ki nou pe propoze ouver li, se sa i selman annan pou fer avek deklarasyon paternite. I napa nanryen pou fer avek siksesyon. Siksesyon li i pou mor apre 5an at any event akoz Lalwa preskripsyon i donn 5an. Si ou vin 15an pli tar pou deklare ou pa pou ganny en par, akoz sa ou ti devret fer li dan sa peryod 5an. E i zis donn ou laliberte toultan se sa lespri. Se ki en dimoun i bezwen toultan kapab al rode lekel ki ti son papa. E se pou sa rezon ki peryod in agrandi.
E i osi parey nou ava vwar pli tar, sa provizyon i osi tie-in avek freedom of testation. Testamentary freedom. Akoz testamentary freedom pe fors dimoun fer en testaman. Alor menm si i ti pou 1an e ou ti vini, papa ti kapab fer en testaman e les pou bann lezot zanfan ki tou an deor. Alor nou pe sey met en pe plis responsabilite lo dimoun. Sa papa ki konnen i annan en bann piti laba deor ki i pa’n cater for, i ava swa fer li dan son testaman, i a les zot en pti bout larzan oubyen i a les zot en propriyete. Oubyen i pa pou les zot ditou. E personn pa pou kapab konteste menm si zot ganny deklare konman son zanfan.
Eski ou kapab anmenn en papa Ankour ki’n fer krwar ki i ou papa e ki zanmen i ou papa? Wi sa i toultan ouver si en dimoun in fer krwar i ou papa epi ou vwar pli tar i pa’n. I ti pe tronp ou. Sa i vin en deli. E i annan en ka devan Lakour ki egzakteman lo sa pwen. Jones vs Chentaro or Chentaro vs Chentaro i egzakteman sa. Ou bezwen pey en domaz. E an menm tan osi si en boug in ganny deklare koman papa e in pey alimoni apre 18an pli tar ler i fer DNA i vwar i pa ti papa en lot boug ki ti papa. Li osi i annan drwa reklanm en pe sa bann depans ki in fer malapropo.
Foster home, si i annan en dimoun i ganny pran malapropo avek en fanmir e ganny met dan en foster home. Wi sa osi i vin en deli, kot ou kapab pli tar ganny en domaz si sa keksoz in ganny fer malapropo.
Late arrival of child apre ki siksesyon in fini, sa mon’ fini kouver. Anr wi. Enjoyment of property of minors. Nou ava vwar taler ki sa ki nou fek vwar la se Lotorite ki paran i annan lo propriyete zot zanfan. E zot annan en serten drwa pou zot servi sa propriyete. Me nou ava vwar taler ki annefe sa bann drwa ki nou annan la, i ganny severman kontrent. Ler i annan par egzanp sa dimoun ki’n ganny Maz Million e ki son paran pa kapab zis servi son larzan, akoz i en miner. Zot bezwen al Ankour rod en lord pou plas son larzan dan en landrwa, e la zot ava servi lentere pou son maintenance, eksetera. Donk i annan en serte restriksyon lo sa ki ou kapab fer e Lakour i annan en oversight role lo sa ki pe ganny fer.
375 DNA ; i annan kestyon ki’n ganny demande a propo lartik 375 lo DNA. Mon’n bliy lanpler sa kestyon eskiz mwan. Epi i reste nou dernyen pwen Mr Chair e sa se why do we have minors and children in 370(1) (a). E sa se en tre bon kestyon, ki malerezman mon ava anvoy lo profeser pou li reponn. Mon ti krwar ki ‘’child’’ i pa menm zafer ki ‘’minor.’’ E i vre i pa menm zafer ki minor akoz nou tou isi dan sa Lasanble nou child en dimoun malgre nou laz. Me i pa sa. That’s not the answer.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you Mr Chair. This provision follows paragraph 1 and the language has shifted but the child is a general description of a descendant. The child who is adult may leave home. The child who is under 18 requires consent to go live elsewhere. So this minor means a person under 18 years of age. A child is ageless, it is the relationship of a person to their parents. I think that is the explanation. Thanks Mr Chairman.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. If that’s agreeable, I am happy to go along with it. Mon pa – si nou regard 370 (2) the welfare and best interest of a child is the first and paramount consideration, in the administration and application of this code in relation to minors and children. In relation to minors we understand that principle. It has to be the welfare and best interest. But what about children who are ageless, who are 19 and over? Why should their welfare and best interest be taken into consideration when they can do that themselves?
MR SPEAKER
Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you. Mr Chair-.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Sorry Mr Chair mon ti anvi zis dir ki sa pa ti dan original draft. Se extended Bills Committee ki’n azout sa dan enn nou bann meeting and that’s why I don’t know why ki nou’n fer li.
MR SPEAKER
Professor.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you Mr Chair. That consistency would require change to 370 paragraph 2. It’s the child under guardianship that is being referred to. Welfare and best interest of the minor child. The child in this instance is a child under guardianship. I believe that’s the interpretation. Thank you Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
It must be close to lunch time Mr Speaker. That’s probably why I can’t follow. I’m sure the Professor is right, is just that I cannot follow the logic. Maybe we can come back to this after lunch and have a think about it.
MR SPEAKER
Se sa ki mon ti pe sizere. Nou ava break e nou ava retournen 2er.
(BREAK)
MR SPEAKER
Bon Lasanble pa ankor quorate. Nou ava donn ankor 2 minit pou nou esper bann Manm antre avan nou repran nou travay.
Bon, nou annan 17 Manm, nou kapab repran nou travay.
Bon mon ti a kontan dir bonn apre midi tou bann Manm e byensir panel. Minister, Professor, Mr Pool, Mr Vidot e tou dimoun osi an deor ki a lekout e pe swiv sa travay.
Nou ava kontinyen kot nou ti’n arete. Ti pou annan enn de pti leklersisman. Mon a donn Onorab Georges laparol.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair nou annan in fact 2 pti leklersisman.
1 mon ti a kontan avek ou permisyon, Onorab Lemiel in fer mon mazinen ki mon pa ti’n reponn enn bann kestyon ki i ti’n demande, i tre kourt. I ti anvi konnen si en dimoun ki annan guardianship en zanfan oubyen ki annan custody en zanfan, en paran, i kite i al reste avek en lot madanm. E, epi i kit sa zanfan laba ek sa madanm, li i ale i al en lot landrwa. E sa madanm i pa pe tret sa zanfan byen. E sa zanfan prezan i annan lide swisid, i pa konnen ki i pou fer. Ki son manman i kapab fer?
I ase kouran sa problenm mon bezwen dir. Kot zanfan i ganny kite an bonnavini avek dimoun. Annan de fwa i en gran paran, annan de fwa i en menazer. E zanfan i ganny tromatize.
Mon ti pou dir li, be i bezwen al Tribinal Lafanmir. Akoz se selman Tribinal Lafanmir ki kapab dil avek sa. Me dan lot parti kestyon Onorab Lemiel, in dir, i pe monte desann Tribinal Lafanmir i pa pe ganny okenn koz.
I pa konnen ki i pou fer. Mon krwar i pou bezwen, i pou bezwen al retourn Tribinal Lafanmir. E si i pa kapab, al Ankour ganny en appointment of guardian e la prezan i ava ale i ava al tir sa zanfan laba li menm, i ava kapab fer li.
E i nou pou vwar egzakteman ki mannyer sa i kapab ganny fer dan bann Lartik ki pe vini. Apre 2enm kestyon Onorab, pardon. Profeser avek Mr Pool in travay lo sa amannman ‘minors and children.’ E zot ava eksplik nou ki nou pe fer.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi. Mersi Onorab Georges. Professor i will give you, or Mr Pool mon a donn ou laparol pou eksplik sa lamannman.
SENIOR LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON MR VICTOR POOL
Yes. Mersi Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
The wording.
SENIOR LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON MR VICTOR POOL
Ok. Kot seksyon 370, sorry Lartik 370 e pou nou distenge kot i aplikab pou nou servi the word ‘minor’ dan plas ‘child.’
So 370(2) the welfare and best interest of the minor is the first and paramount consideration. Apre the 370(2)(a). Nou pou delete after the, everything after ‘code.’ Savedir in relation to minor, minors and children.
Apre (b), nou pou delete dernyen mo, ‘child’, nou pou ranplas li avek ‘that minor’. Apre sub 4, in relation to a minor, welfare includes ‘access ,care and custody, maintenance and education.’ That’s it.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Mr Pool.
MR SPEAKER
Bon eski i akseptab pou bann Manm. Onorab Ramkalawan.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Mr Chairman. The only thing ki mon ti ava demande. Se an relasyon avek en zanfan ki annan en dezabilite. Parske si nou pe, mon pe kalkile ki pli tar letan nou pou koz lo drwa liberte, testamentary freedom.
I guess there will be somewhere where a parent will still have the responsibility to ensure the maintenance of a child with disability.
So even though the child is an adult, there will be, we will be seeking that the parent will, the parent will not be able to not leave anything for that child. So, in that section here, should we not, I am just asking, I don’t know – should we not be including a child with, with disabilities? So that-? Huh? Ok it’s now only the minor who is being taken care of. But what about, what about the child with a disability? Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Yes, Mr Chair. I think we are going to come to that. Children or even adults with a physical or mental disability when we get to 489; which is interdiction. They are also assimilated to minors and they have a guardian to them as well.
So under 370 whether they are able or disabled, so long as they are minors, they get covered. But if they are over 18, then they will fall. Then they will have pre- interdiction under 489.
MR SPEAKER
Ok. So nou, Lasanble nou ganny pozisyon pou nou pran en desizyon, lo seksyon ki tonm anba children. Lartik 369 ziska 385. Tou Manm ki an faver? Okenn Manm ki kont? Madanm Clerk.
MADAM CLERK
Mersi Mr Chair. 18 Manm in vot an faver e personn kont. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi. Savedir seksyon Children anba Book I ki form par sa schedule, Lartik 369 to 385 i ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal. Onorab Georges nou kontinyen.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chairman nou annan ki reste nou. E mon mazinen nou a kapab tackle sa apre midi. I reste nou 2 topik pou nou fini Book I.
E sa topik premye se guardianship ki devan nou. E apre en minor topik ki sorti dan guardianship parey mon fek dir. 489 an alan ki pou fer avek interdiction. Donk epi nou ava fini Book I.
E Book II i konmans avek propriyete. Donk avek ou permisyon mon ava pran sa premye morso, Guardianship depi 391 ziska 476. E sa i annan pou fer – (Bonn apre midi bann Manm e Minis e tou dimoun ki pe ekout nou) – sa i annan pou fer avek lekel ki kapab vin en guardian a en zanfan oubyen en adilt ki pou ganny enterdi. E ki son bann responsabilite? Ki son bann fonksyon? Lekel ki pa kapab vin en guardian? Ki mannyer pou tir guardian eksetera.
Donk sa bann Lartik ki nou pe vwar i plizoumwen sorti dan Code Civil aktyel. Texto, zot pa’n ganny highlighted apard 391. Kote i ete anba Code aktyel?
389 an montan, sa se guardianship. In annan en, en rea ranzman. Me epi obviously i annan serten keksoz ki annan pou fer avek illegitimate children ki’n sorti. Alor 391 en miner i anba guardianship son paran.
Ozordi 389 i dir, ‘’the father during marriage.’’ Alor la in en pe sanze. Guardianship, en gardyen, en guardian en miner, oubyen en dimoun in ganny interdict i kapab ganny apwente par testaman, oubyen par en deklarasyon ki’n ganny fer swa devan en Ziz, swa devan en noter.
E 90poursan bann apwentman guardian i ganny fer devan noter. E pour bann rezon ler i annan en minor ki pe vwayaze parey nou’n vwar pli boner. Me osi dan serten lezot ka, par egzanp paran i reste La Digue.
Zot pe anvoy zot zanfan lekol Mahe. E zot anvi ki en dimoun Mahe i pran responsabilite sa zanfan. Zot ava fer en guardianship, pou li kapab dil avek sa zanfan. Oubyen ou anvoy ou zanfan lekol deor, i ankor miner.
Ou apwent en dimoun deor konman son guardian. E sa i ganny fer devan noter. Detanzantan i bezwen ganny fer devan en Ziz. Akoz i annan en dezagreman.
Papa ek manman pa kapab tonm dakor lo lekel ki devret vin guardian. Alor ou al devan en Ziz. Oubyen enn ant sa de paran i kapab fer en testaman. Pou dir ler i mor, okenn son bann zanfan ki ankor miner, i pe apwent tel, ou tel dimoun pou vin son guardian. E sa dimoun i pa neseserman bezwen sa lot spouse.
401, sa dimoun ki ganny apwente konman guardian pa bezwen aksepte. I annan en choice pou li dir sorry, mon pa enterese, oubyen mon pa kapab.
E si i pa kapab, donk se Lakour ki pou fer en default apwentman. Ler 402, ler en gardyen pa’n ganny apwente par son paran, i ava ganny apwente par Lakour. E Lakour i ava apwent nenport ki dimoun.
Me i ava regard en pti pe bann gran paran, pou gete si la se landrwa kot ki devret ganny apwente. Attorney Zeneral i kapab. Akoz Attorney Zeneral isi Sesel i annan; i met en sapo Minister Piblik. Attorney Zeneral, depar son lapwentman i vin ansarz tou bann miner dan Sesel. Tou bann miner i vin anba son responsabilite legal.
E i annan en rol pou li zwe, pou sofgard zot lentere. Menm kont zot paran oubyen zot gardyen. Alor i kapab a nenport ki moman, entervenir ler personn pa’n ganny apwente. E pou li ed Lakour dan lapwentman en dimoun apropriye pou vin guardian.
405; okenn paran pa pou ganny anpese, unless i annan en bon rezon pou li vin guardian son zanfan as of right. Akoz se zot prensipalman ki devret gardyen.
415 ki en nouvo propozisyon. Ler en Lakour i kapab apwent en gardyen, i kapab apwent osi up to 2 co-guardians. Sa i pa dan Code
Civil, me i en lespri. Akoz nou’n vwar dan lapratik annan de fwa, olye annan zis en sel gardyen, i bon annan enn ou 2 dimoun pou ede. E sa i ariv sirtou ler i annan en gran dispit Mr Chair, ant de dimoun ki tou lede, tou lede i ti ava bon gardyen.
Tou le de i anvi vin gardyen. E Lakour pa kapab deside akoz pou donn enn e non pa lot? Alors sa i donn Lakour posibilite pou apwent 2 dimoun.
Si Anfen wi – in arive resaman kot dan en ka enterdiksyon 2 gardyen in ganny apwente pour sa dimoun ki ti ganny enterdi pou sa rezon ki mon fek donnen.
MR SPEAKER
Yes Onorab Ramkalawan.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Mersi Mr Speaker. Zis, parske nou pe go through tou sa bann keksoz enn par enn, mon ti ava, mon ti ava demande vi ki dan seksyon avan nou’n fer sa distenksyon ant minor avek ‘child’, ‘children.’
Ki nou- Mon pe demande si i pa ti ava apropriye pou nou, an mezir nou fer sa osi, la par egzanp lo 402(1), kot i dir where no guardian is appointed to a minor by the parents of the – mon sipoze la i vin –‘ the child’ i byen. Sa word ‘child’, apre 405. ‘’No one shall be deprived without good cause of the right to be a guardian of his or her own minors.’’ Parski children i kapab, mon pe zis met sa, Onorab Georges i konnen ki mon pe dir.
MR SPEAKER
Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Wi, mon krwar i fer sans. Mwan mon ti ava, mwan mon ti ava dir, dan 402(1), ‘’where no guardian is appointed to minor by the parents of the child.’’
Nou kapab revwar li. Nou kapab dir ‘’where no guardian is appointed by the parents of the minor or survive of them’’. Nou ti a kapab dir sa. Si nou pa anvi repet ‘child.’
E an 405 mon krwar la nou ti a kapab osi azout ‘’his or her own minor children.’’ Zis pou fer sans. Me etandonnen ki guardianship is of minor children, mon krwar se pou sa rezon ki nou pa’n repete.
Me Profeser i ava take this on board. E anmezir ki nou pe pofin sa, avan ki nou retourn devan Lasanble ankor avek sa bann pti consequential amendments nou ava, nou ava fer sa si ou dakor Mr Chair?
Nou ti lo 416. Duty, devwar en gardyen se pou protez lentere sa dimoun pou lekel i en guardian. Si i annan propriyete deor, Lakour, sa gardyen i kapab demann enn, apwentman en co-guardian pou dil avek sa propriyete laba deor, ler li i pa kapab al deor li menm pou al fer li.
E vis versa, ler sa dimoun, sa minor i deor e son propriyete i isi. E nou’n azoute dan Extended Bills Committee par. Akoz i annan en sizesyon ki ti’n ganny fer ki sa co-guardian i ganny domicile isi Sesel.
Domicile under the legal principal of domicile. E sa se pou ki Lakour i annan en ziridiksyon lo li. E sa bann co-guardian i annan menm drwa ek devwar ki en guardian. Ankor enn fwa nou pe al-
La nou pou al en seri responsabilite ek devwar; guardian i bezwen administre propriyete depi zour ki i vin guardian. I pran son lobligasyon depi moman ki i ganny notifye, ki in ganny apwente.
Ou pa kapab transmet ou guardianship. Setadir. I ou ki’n ganny apwente guardian. Ou pa kapab donn en lot dimoun sa drwa. Sa drwa i personnel avek ou. Sa lapwentman i pou ou. Ler ou mor, ou zanfan pa antre pou vin guardian sa dimoun.
E bann zeritye ler en gardyen i mor, bann zeritye i ava administre sa byen ziska ler nouvo gardyen i ganny apwente. Tousala se dan Code Civil mannyer i ete. Pa’n sanze.
E zot ava vwar, e tre long akoz Code Civil in santi ki responsabilite pou propriyete byennet miner i tre enportan. Se pou sa rezon ki i pas en bon pe letan lo la. Ler lentere en gardyen i an konfli avek lentere sa dimoun pou lekel i en guardian.
I ava annan en sub- guardian pou fer sir ki sa konfli lentere pa arive. E sa sub guardian i ava annan responsabilite zis lo sa keksoz kot i annan en konfli lentere. E pa bann lezot keksoz kot napa. En fwa ki konfli in ganny rezourd.
Sub guardian i ava account to the Court. Court ki annan oversight. E apre Lakour i kapab desarz li dan son fonksyon. E osi ler gardyen i absan oubyen i anba en serten lenkapasite. Dizon in ganny gro maladi.
E i al Chennai par egzanp pou li pas detrwa mwan laba anba tretman. En sub guardian i kapab ganny apwente dan son plas pou sa peryod letan.
E sa sub guardian i annan menm responsabilite vizavi okenn domaz ki arive akoz son failure pou li, pou li antre dan son fonksyon. En dimoun ki Lakour i apwente konman gardyen i kapab rod en ekzanpsyon pou li pa ganny apwente.
E sa i ava ganny akorde par Lakour, si i annan en bon rezon. E sa lalis dimoun swivan, pa kapab ganny apwente gardyen d’office. Zot pa bezwen demann Lakour en egzanpsyon. Zot pa kapab ganny apwente.
Okenn Ziz, Attorney Zeneral oubyen any other Law Officers, Mr Pool la. pa pou kapab vin en gardyen okenn zanfan. Okenn Zofisye Lakour ki kapab pran en desizyon, okenn sitwayen ki, ki annan en, ki dan public ki kapab, ki kapab ganny apele.
Akoz zot pe travay dan en Departman Gouvernman ki kapab ganny demande pou pran en desizyon lo sa guardianship. Okenn Zofisye Militer oubyen sitwayen ki’n ganny poste an deor Sesel Anbasader eksetera.
A nenport ki moman, en dimoun in ganny apwente i kapab al Ankour e demande ki i ganny released. Akoz zot tonm dan enn sa bann class. Kekfwa ler zot ti ganny apwente zot pa ti dan enn sa bann group, me apre zot tonm ladan, alor zot kapab demann tire.
E Lakour ankor ava les zot ale. Kekfwa anba kondisyon ki Lakour i ava enpoze. E si zot stati i sanze e zot retourn zot, revin eligible zot kapab demande pou zot ganny re apwente ankor.
Okenn dimoun par lao 65an i kapab refiz-e pou li azir. I pa kapab, i pa ki ou pa pou kapab ganny apwente. Me ou kapab si ou ganny apwente refiz-e.
E i kapab al ziska 70an. Or i kapab demande ler i ariv 65an, pou li ganny desarze konman en guardian. En dimoun ki annan en lenfirmite i ganny exempt.
Severe – en lenfirmite sever e si sa lenfirmite i vin sibsekaman apre son lapwentman. I kapab demande pou li ganny retire. Sa bann dimoun swivan pa kapab, pa kapab, enposib pou zot vin gardyen.
Minors, except pou zot prop zanfan. Setadir si en fiy par anba 18an i ansent e i ganny en zanfan, i kapab vin en guardian. Me i pa kapab vin en guardian pou piti son ser par egzanp. Okenn dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi.
Akoz parey nou a vwar taler, ler ou ganny enterdi par Lakour, ou ganny asimile a en, en gardyen. Oubyen okenn dimoun ki Ankour pe dispit en problenm avek sa miner. En dimoun ki’n kondannen pou prizon pou plis ki 5an, i ava arete.
I pa pou kapab vin apwente gardyen forever, pou okenn guardianship ki i annan. E i pa pou kapab reganny apwente pou en peryod 5an apre ki son santans in fini.
Dan tou lezot ka, lo laplikasyon en dimoun enterese oubyen Attorney Zeneral, Lakour i kapab ordonn-en ki en dimoun, ki’n al prizon i ava ganny excluded. Setadir pa zis 5an, me dan tou lezot ka, kot i annan en lofans prizon.
E sa laplikasyon pou retir sa dimoun ki’n ganny kondannen prizon, i a ganny fer dan en peryod 6 mwan depi son kondannasyon.
E en laplikasyon pou anpes li revin gardyen, i ava ganny fer pandan en peryod 5an depi ler ki i sorti prizon. En gardyen ki pa anvi ganny apwente i ava bezwen donn ek Lakour bann rezon pou li pa ganny apwente.
E Attorney Zeneral i kapab ganny ekoute dan sa case. E si sa dimoun i annan bon rezon, Lakour i ava retir li konman en gardyen oubyen anpes li vin gardyen depi sa zour ki i demande.
E si napa, si napa okenn valid ground pou li sorti konman en gardyen, Lakour i ava mentenir son lapwentman e i ava fer li pey fre Lakour. E en dimoun ki’n ganny apwente par Lakour, i bezwen azir konman gardyen ziska zour ki i ganny formelman les ale.
Sa bann dimoun swivan pa kapab vin gardyen. Zot ava vwar i annan plizyer repetisyon la. En bann i exempted, en bann i prohibited, la sa bann i in lizib. Zot napa, zot pa ilizib, zot pa kapab vin gardyen.
Ban ki anba, ki zot konportman i notwar, mon mazinen bann dimoun ki sou oubyen en prostitye oubyen en keksoz koumsa. Oubyen zot bann dimoun ki enkonpetan, oubyen dezonnet.
E okenn dimoun enterese oubyen Attorney Zeneral i kapab konmans en case Ankour pou demann en dimoun ki en koup enkonpetan oubyen dezonnet pou li ganny retire konman gardyen.
E en dimoun ki son fason fer, son kondwit i met an danze lavi oubyen lasante en miner, i kapab ganny retire ankor enn fwa si Attorney Zeneral oubyen en dimoun enterese i fer li.
Prezan ki i arive ki ler enn sa bann laplikasyon pou tir en gardyen i ganny fer. Sa gardyen i bezwen ganny ekoute, i bezwen ganny son sans – due process. I pa kapab zis ganny tire san ki i ganny ekoute.
I kapab ganny kondannen pou li pey fre Lakour si i pe perdi letan Lakour, natirelman. E si Lakour i deside pou tir li, Lakour i bezwen donn rezon. Sa set en, en pwen Lalwa administrative.
Sak fwa ki Lakour i fer en desizyon administrative, e sa i enn. I bezwen donn rezon. E ler Lakour pe ekout en case pou tir en gardyen, i kapab an menm tan pe ekout en laplikasyon pou li apwent en nouvo gardyen dan plas sa enn ki pe sorti.
Responsabilite gardyen i ava annan care lo sa zanfan, e la gard. E reprezant sa zanfan, sa miner oubyen sa dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi. Dan tou bann Akt legal, setadir si i annan en lavant later ki sa miner pe aste en lavant later.
Oubyen son paran pe aste sa pou li. Se sa gardyen ki pou sinyen pou li. Oubyen si parey nou a vwar taler, avek permisyon Lakour i pe vann en byen ki pou en miner, se sa gardyen ki pou, ki pou reprezant li.
Oubyen si sa miner i ganny met Ankour. Oubyen i met en dimoun Ankour, kekfwa i en propriyeter en later, e i annan en dimoun ki pe antre lo son later, nwizans eksetera. Se sa gardyen ki pou fer li.
E sa gardyen an mezir ki i pe administre propriyete, i ava fer sa avek swen rezonnab, e i ava responsab pou okenn pert ki son ladministrasyon i anmennen.
En gardyen pa kapab ni aste propriyete sa miner. Ni lwe sa propriyete, ni donn okenn drwa, okenn dimoun lo sa propriyete. Ni ipotek bind to the property; met angaz sa propriyete sa miner pou okenn sonm.
E sa gardyen i ganny drwa invest larzan sa miner zis dan bann, bann shares, bann stock, bann sekirite, bann bond eksetera, ki’n ganny spesifye dan Lalwa.
Unless ki i kapab ganny permisyon Lakour pou li invest sa dan en lot fason. Me zot ava vwar ki se Lakour ki toultan annan en oversight lo byen en gardyen.
E an attendant sa, sa gardyen i ava depoz Trezor, oubyen dan en Labank ki Lakour in ganny aprouve. Tou larzan sa miner ki pa ganny, ki pa bezwen pou bann expenses sa miner.
Oubyen ladministrasyon son propriyete. E si sa pa ganny fer, se sa gardyen ki pou responsab lentere lo sa bann fon ki i pa’n depoze. E gardyen pa pou tir okenn fon dan okenn Labank san lotorizasyon en Ziz. Mon aret la en pti kou Mr Chair, pou eksplike.
Ki en legzanp sa ki nou fek vwar la se ler en miner annan de fwa i sibir en aksidan, aksidan larout. En manrmay i ganny tape par en loto. E apre i ganny en domaz ki lasirans i peye. Akoz i pa ti son fot.
Sa larzan i bezwen ganny depoze Ankour, pardon. I bezwen ganny depoze dan en Labank oubyen Trezor, me konmela i dan en Labank. Akoz Labank i donn lentere. Apre ki ou’n fer en laplikasyon devan en Ziz.
Ou pa kapab met sa lo son kont. Oubyen donn sa son paran. Oubyen donn sa son gardyen. Fodre i annan en laplikasyon ki ganny fer. E ziz i ava dir dan ki Labank pou depoze, a ki to lentere.
Obviously i pou, i pou fer, ou pou bezwen montre lekel Labank ki donn meyer lentere. E si ou anvi tir okenn larzan. Akoz kekfwa sa miner i tonm malad e i bezwen al deor.
Oubyen i bezwen en pe, en set liniform pou li al lekol or whatever, i napa larzan. Ou bezwen al Ankour e demann permisyon pou tir sa larzan lo kont miner.
Donk Lakour i annan oversight. Sa enn ki pe vini la, , zanmen i ganny fer. E sa se apre ki en, ki en gardyen in ganny apwente i bezwen demann retir tou bann sele lo propriyete si in ganny mete. Ki annefe zanmen nou vwar isi Sesel.
E i bezwen fer en lenvanter. Sa i enportan, i bezwen fer en lenvanter. Tou bann byen sa miner. E i bezwen fer sa devan en noter. E sa se pou fer sir ki demen napa okenn dispit lo kisisa ki sa guardian in takeover e ki sa ki i pe rann.
E si okenn keksoz, si okenn larzan i ganny, si sa guardian, si sa miner i drwa sa guardian okenn larzan.
Sa i ava ganny antre osi dan sa lenvanter. E noter i ava bezwen demann li sa, e deklarasyon sa gardyen i ava ganny fer par sa noter.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Mon pe-? If i may?
MR SPEAKER
Onorab go ahead.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
From 450 mon pe kontinyen tann Onorab Georges pe servi sa mo ‘minor’. When in fact it’s the word, ‘ward.’ Parske a ward can be, it can also be a minor or not. So it’s not-
Letan ou pe kontinyelman pe servi sa mo ‘minor’, mon krwar i pa toutafe korek. Parske a ward i kapab en dimoun 40an, as long as ki Lakour in-
MR SPEAKER
Onorab. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Wi, point taken Mr Chair. Annefe konman zot a konnen, plizyer fwa mon arete mon dir, minor or en dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi. Me mon pa dir li toultan. Mon eskize.
Mon pa vwar en fason vit, pou dir ‘ward’, pou. Amwen ki zot dakor mon dir ‘ward’, akoz sansan mon bezwen dir miner oubyen en dimoun enterdi a sak fwa ki i vin en pe long.
Me point taken ler nou dir ward e ler i annan en gardyen, i annan en gardyen pou 2 kalite dimoun. 1 se en minor, oubyen en dimoun ki ganny enterdi par Lakour parey nou pou vwar taler ler nou ariv lo Lartik 489.
Donk nou kontinyen. Lenvanter i bezwen ganny fer. E sa gardyen i ava vann okenn lobze ki pa bezwen pou mentenans sa dimoun. Pou gard li otan ki posib dan sa nivo lavi ki i ti pe enjoy avan ki en gardyen ti vin neseser pou li.
‘Shall.’ E sa obviously zanmen i ganny fer Mr Chair pou en tre bon rezon. Akoz anything ki ou sell by public auction isi Sesel, ou pe ganny R100. Byen gannyen.
Akoz dan bann lavant alankan ki ganny fer Ankour, se sel landrwa kot ou kapab aste en loto pou R15mil oubyen en keksoz. Alors sa zanmen i ganny fer. Akoz i pa dan lentere sa miner pou fer sa. Me solman son Lalwa i la.
Sa ki pa ganny vann, i ganny liste dan en lalis. Gardyen pa pou transfer okenn propriyete, okenn byen sa miner ki en byen enkorporel. Setadir en share par egzanp. En keksoz ki pa tanzib.
E pou okenn sa bann keksoz lotorizasyon Lakour pa ganny, pa bezwen si lavaler propriyete i mwens ki R50mil. Alor ou pa bezwen al Ankour. Me okenn keksoz plis ki sa, ou pou bezwen.
E Lakour i ava otoriz sa lavant, si i trouv li byen. Okenn tit, e la i annan en problenm. Okenn tit nominatif ki pou sa ward dan en peryod 3 mwan, i pou bezwen ganny sanze pou vin en bearer title.
E sa i pa posib. Akoz nou nepli kapab annan bearer shares dan nou pei. Alor nou bezwen revwar 453(1)(a) Mr Chair. Rezon i senp deryer sa. Se ki ou pa gard en keksoz lo non en miner, oubyen lo non en dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi.
Akoz ou pa pou kapab dil avek. Alor ou met li lo en bearer. Dan en fason ki la i pli fasil prezan pou sa gardyen dil avek. Me etandonnen ki nou’n pas en Lalwa poudir ki bearer shares ou pa kapab annan bearer shares.
Alor nou pou bezwen revwar sa 453(1)(a) sansan i pou en, i pou en seksyon ki pa fer okenn sans. Alor mon poz la pou nou revwar 453 Mr Chair. Professor? Mon pe propoze ki nou vreman pa bezwen 453.
I pa azout nanryen. Mon pa vwar son rasyonnel. Akoz ki tou bann tit, okenn keksoz ki dan non sa ward i pou bezwen ganny sanze vin lo non bearer.
MR SPEAKER
Eski ou pe dir the whole 453?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Yes Mr Speaker. I en long, i en long lartik.
MR SPEAKER
I en long lartik wi.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Me tousala i relye avek transform tit nominatif pou vin tit bearer.
MR SPEAKER
Professor there’s a proposal. Onorab Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair perhaps could, Onorab Georges just give us an idea, what was the intent with this clause originally?
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Pillay. Onorab Georges. Eski sa clause in sorti dan present Code? And what was the intent?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
I la dan 452. Me, e nou’n gard li. Akoz parey mon’n dir, prensip sete pou gard otan keksoz ki la dan Code. Unless ki i ti annan en bon rezon pou tir li.
MR SPEAKER
Onorab Ferrari.
HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI
Zis pou rapel Onorab Georges ki nou ti’n sey pran en lapros en pe, avek en pe prekosyon kot nou pa. I pa afekte nanryen, not negatively or positively.
But in case of en pti dout, we live it there. With, mannyer ou dir sa? So mwan mon ti ava dir, if its bearer shares. Konmela zot pa aksepte bearer shares in Seychelles. But it might happened one day.
So it can’t be done anyway. Well why would you take it out? It doesn’t add anything to the- Mersi Mr Speaker. So let us err on the side of caution.
MR SPEAKER
Yes. Mersi Onorab. Let’s see. Professor?
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you Mr Chairman. I’m advised that there are no bearer shares in Seychelles. But in other countries there are. And the child may hold bearer shares, which are negotiable by cash.
I think i believe the precautionary approach is the better one. So there is a provision to make them traceable and accountable. Thanks Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Minister.
MINISTER JEAN-PAUL ADAM
Thank you Mr Chair. And just to state that the bearer shares were eliminated in Seychelles. In relation to compliance with the OECD guidance on tax compliance.
So I think that currently you can’t have bearer shares in Seychelles. Although you may have them overseas.
I think going on what Honorable Ferrari said we could probably leave it as it is, in the sense that it will refer to other legislation, without probably creating too much damage. Thank you Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Minister. Honorable Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Yes i totally agree. And in fact I raised the issue. But there is a – And I fully understand this. Ex abundanti cautela. That’s what we must do from an abundance of caution let’s leave it there. So the problem is the moment we have it, every guardian who is appointed falls foul of 453. Because they cannot convert titles into shares. That’s – they turn to bearer shares. That’s the point. It’s not that they may have to, so we will have to say ‘’the guardian shall’’ where appropriate, within 3 months, convert.
Because that will mean that where it can be done, can be done. But where it can’t be done, he is not in default.
MR SPEAKER
Agree Professor or Minister? The proposal.
PROFESSOR ANTHONY ANGELO
Thank you Mr Chairman. That seems appropriate typically where there is a bearer shares of its valid in a foreign country, it would be possible in that country to convert it to a nominative, a nominated share. But in the event that that is not possible, the wording suggest that can be, can be included to cover the possibility. And avoid a guardian being in default under the provision. Thank you.
MR SPEAKER
Thank you Professor. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Yes thank you. I agree Mr Chair. We have another residual problem. And that is, we are talking of bearer shares, because of the word ‘bearer.’
And we went straight to shares. But what this says is all nominative titles. So if there’s a property in the name of the minor, if the minor owes title V1234, in his name, that’s got to be changed.
It’s got to go to a bearer. It’s got to go to bearer. It’s all titles, all nominative titles. Not just shares in companies. And it’s an onerous thing. Nobody does that.
You can’t do that, you can’t do this, stuck with stamp duty of 5 percent anyway. So why would you want to do that, and remove 5 percent of the wealth of the minor, for no appropriate gain.
You see, let’s not spend time. Let’s go on, but flag this up, so that we can come back to it later.
MR SPEAKER
Yes, ok.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
455, ankor enn fwa sa se bann keksoz ki dan Lalwa, me ki zanmen i ganny swiv.
Akoz i telman onerous. Avan ki en gardyen ki pa manman ek papa i antre dan son fonksyon, Lakour i ava fer lo en baz lestimasyon oubyen en rough evaluation sa bann propriyete ki pou sa miner. Lakour ava settle.
Depans 1an ki sa ward pou bezwen ek pou ladministrasyon sa, sa propriyete. Donk i ava dir i pou kout tan pou administre sa propriyete pou sa 1an. Alor nou met sa de kote.
E sa i kapab ganny fer pandan nominasyon sa gardyen. Lakour ava ordonn-en si sa gardyen i pou bezwen pran lasistans en administrater ki pou ganny peye, ki pou azir anba son lotorite, pou manage propriyete sa miner, oubyen sa ward. Lakour i kapab ordonnen kote sa byen pou ganny envestir, si dan en Labank oubyen en Lenstitisyon Financier. E si gardyen pa fer sa i pou bezwen pey lentere lo sa sonm ki sa ward in perdi.
457; san lotorizasyon Lakour en gardyen pa pou borrow larzan oubyen vann, oubyen mortgage propriyete sa ward. Oubyen fer okenn konpromi ki involve propriyete sa ward.
Setadir, exchange, swap oubyen fer okenn keksoz koumsa. E sa nou vwar ase souvan. Ler i annan miner ki annan propriyete e zot paran i zot gardyen, e paran kekfwa i anvi fer parey dernyen legzanp ki mwan mon konnen, i anvi fer en block of flats lo sa later pou benefis sa miner. I bezwen al Ankour e demann Lakour permisyon pou li borrow larzan avek en Labank, ipotek sa later, fer sa block apartman pou benefis sa miner.
E Lakour i swiv sa tre pre, pou fer sir ki tou keksoz i ganny fer above board. Ler okenn byen en ward i ganny vann, se Lalwa lo lavant Zidisyer.
Setadir bann lavant a labar, kot Ziz i vann alankan Ankour apre piblikasyon eksetera. Parey nou fer ler en dimoun pa pey son loan, ou vwar Labank tanzantan i sezi en later, i vann Ankour.
Menm prosedir i ganny swiv, pou, okenn lavant, okenn byen bann ward. E sa se pou latransparans natirelman. Sa i ganny fer by public auction dan prezans sa gardyen.
Lakour oubyen noter i resevwar bann bids. I annan piblikasyon notis dan Gazette. E, me Lakour i rezerv drwa osi pou ordonnen ki sa propriyete i ganny vann par noter e non pa par Lakour, par en lavant alankan, si i kler ki sa lavant alankan pa pou ganny en pri osi bon ki si ou vann li par kontra prive, atraver en noter. E la gardyen i ava donn son lopinyon.
E avan ki Lakour i ordonnen enn ou sa 2 fason pou fer. Sa lartik pa aplike, ler i annan en lavant par fiduciare, akoz sa miner i annan zis en co-ownership. I zis co-owner dan en later.
I annan lezot dimoun ki pa miner, alor ou bezwen vann atraver en fiduciary sa lartik pa aplike. Akoz se Lartik lo fiduciary ki nou pou vwar en pe pli tar dan nou travay ki pou aplike dan sa ka.
461; en gardyen i kapab aksepte en siksesyon propriyete moveable -pa later pou en ward. Me selman apre ki en lenvanter in ganny fer. Si napa lenvanter, ou bezwen al Ankour, e demann Lakour pou aksepte sa siksesyon.
E rezon i senp. Akoz moveable property, ler ou aksepte li, ou aksepte li avek det sa dimoun ki’n mor. Tandis ki immoveable property ki pas atraver Egzekiter, det i ganny dil avek separeman.
Alor se pou sa rezon ki ou bezwen aksepte, selman ler i annan en lenvanter, pou ou konnen konbyen asset i annan, e konbyen det i annan dan sa siksesyon.
Ou pa kapab, ou gardyen pa pou kapab aksepte en byen ler i annan en det ki pli gro ki sa byen. Akoz se sa miner ki pou bezwen peye.
Vwala siksesyon si i annan later – sa i ganny dil avek anba Lartik 10(25) a 10(34); ki bann Lartik ki annan pou fer avek executors. E executors li i bezwen pey tou det avan apre distribye sa ki reste. Alor napa risk pou sa miner.
462; kot i annan en siksesyon moveable property ki sa gardyen pa aksepte, e ki pa’n ganny aksepte par okenn lezot dimoun. Sa gardyen i kapab retournen, i dir ok, fine i ava aksepte sa. E sa ward osi i kapab fer sa apre ki sa guardianship in terminen, ler in ariv 18an oubyen ler in sorti dan en lenterdiksyon. E sa siksesyon i bezwen ganny aksepte dan leta ki i ete ler i ganny reklanmen non pa o moman kot in ganny repudiate.
463; en gardyen i kapab aksepte en don, en gift pou son ward. Egzakteman parey si sa ward pa ti anba guardianship. En gardyen pa bezwen okenn lotorizasyon pou anmenn en case on behalf en drwa ki en ward i annan dan later.
E i kapab admet claims lezot dimoun dan menm kondisyon ki nou’n vwar anba Lartik 457. E sa kondisyon se, zis pou fer zot rapel, 457 avek lotorizasyon Lakour.
469; gardyen i bezwen rann kont son management ler son guardianship i fini. E sa se sa 2 lartik ki pe swiv lo ki mannyer i pou rann kont. I bezwen file en kont anyel dan registry Lakour.
Son management i bezwen ganny verifye par en affidavit. Okenn dimoun i kapab avek permisyon Ziz al enspekte sa statement. E Lakour oubyen Attorney Zeneral i kapab demande ki bann statement i ganny fer pli regilye ki en fwa toulezan.
E 471, kont final en guardianship i ava ganny delivre ler sa guardianship i terminen. Sa gardyen i ava pey bann fre. E i ava ganny drwa rekouver tou son bann expense ki in sibir pandan son guardianship – tan ki sa ti neseser.
472; en agreement ki’n ganny fer ant sa gardyen ek son ward, en fwa ki son ward i nepli en miner oubyen anba lenterdiksyon, pa pou valab si i pa’n ganny akonpannyen oubyen presede par sa kont ki guardian i bezwen vann son ward.
E tousala i bezwen ganny fer par en dokiman an ekrir ki’n ganny fer omwen 10 zour avan sa agreement. Si i annan okenn dispit lo sa kont, sa i ava ganny rezourd parey okenn lezot dispit civil.
Setadir swa par negosyasyon, swa par Lakour. E okenn balans ki gardyen i devret rann a son ward, i ava avek lentere, menm si okenn demann pa bezwen ganny fer.
E sa i ava ganny kalkile depi zour ki kont in fermen. E lentere i konmans run apre ki kont in ganny rann, e ziska ler peyman i ganny fer.
MR SPEAKER
Si bann Manm pa mind hold zot thought, nou ava pran li, nou pres pou fini. Onorab Georges pe aret lo. Ou pa pe tous 489 Onorab Georges non? Ou pou aret avan 489. Akoz, non, non mon annan lezot Manm ki’n lev lanmen.
Annou fini en pe Lartik, hold zot thought apre mon ava donn zot laparol. Onorab Georges kontinyen.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. I annan zis ankor 2 lartik pou mon termin sa seksyon.
En aksyon ki en ward i kapab pran kont son gardyen, akoz son gardyen pa’n desarz son fonksyon parey i ganny demande. Ankor enn fwa i ganny preskrir par en peryod 5an ki preskripsyon normal anba Code Civil.
Setadir ki i annan zis 5an pou li anmenn sa gardyen Ankour. Apre sa i perdi son drwa. 476; si en gardyen pa kapab egzers kontrol lo son ward, ki i arive parfwa, i kapab apply ek Lakour pou en lord e sa Lakour i kapab fer okenn lord ki byen dan bann sirkonstans sa ka. Prenon lentere, prenon regar lentere sa ward including i fer. Pou ki i fer en kontribisyon i ganny fer, kontribisyon apropriye pou mentenans sa ward.
Oubyen okenn lenstriksyon ki annan pou fer avek propriyete. Setadir ki si napa, si napa lantant ant gardyen avek ward – gardyen i kapab al Ankour e demand ek Lakour pou vann okenn propriyete oubyen pou ordonn li pou li pran en serten sonm larzan pou maintenance sa ward.
E ankor enn fwa tousala i size a lentervansyon Attorney Zeneral ki li i ansarz tou bann dimoun ki bann miner. Setadir zanfan e bann dimoun anba enterdiksyon. Vwala Mr Chair.
Nou’n ariv a la fen sa long seksyon. I reste nou zis en dernyen pti seksyon.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Nou ava pran detrwa entervansyon. Onorab William.
HON WAVEN WILLIAM
Mersi Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker mon ti anvi ganny en pti gidans avek leklersisman. Lefe ki anba, 442, kot i dir ki sa sonm, sa guardian pa bezwen otorizasyon Lakour pou en tranzaksyon par anba R50mil.
Me mon krwar anba 447, ou a krwar i annan en pti kontradiksyon kot i dir ki gardyen pa kapab fer okenn tranzaksyon san otorizasyon Lakour. Me selman anler i donn sa, sa lotorizasyon. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab William. Onorab Ferrari.
HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI
Mr Speaker mon ti, ti plis en remark piblikasyon. Mon ti a zis kontan. Akoz mademoiselle, oubyen Ms Sarah pa la. Zis ler pou sinyale, ki when they do the final printing of the Bill, of the Act, i annan en paz ki’n ganny duplicated. So just as en note so that it is, it does not appear in the final one. Akoz bokou, laplipar nou pe, are not using a hard copy.
So, but it’s in the hard copy you can see it. So thank you for that. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Esparon.
HON REGINA ESPARON
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair guardianship 391, i dir ‘’a minor is under the guardianship of the parent.’’
E 392 i dir ‘’the minor may be appointed by the parent who is the guardian.’’ Mwan mon leklersisman ki mon ti a kontan Onorab Georges i donn mwan, dan ka kot ou annan ou en paran – paran en zanfan ki en miner deza. En teenage pregnancy kot sa paran, sa zanfan i annan en zanfan. Lekel ki pou ganny mete konman son guardian sa zanfan? Eski sa granmanman ki pou ganny mete konman sa guardian?
Oubyen sa miner ki en paran li menm li ki pou vin sa, sa guardian? E dan ka kot ou annan sa zanfan ki son papa li i en adilt. Eski si sa papa ki anvi vin gardyen sa zanfan i bezwen fer en laplikasyon Ankour pou li vin gardyen sa zanfan? Mon ti a kontan leklersisman. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon reponn Onorab Esparon. Akoz son kestyon, i pli resan. Dan ka ki in dir sa miner ki annan en zanfan, i gardyen son zanfan. Me manman sa miner, oubyen papa sa miner, paran sa miner ki li menm li i en paran en zanfan, i gardyen sa miner. Setadir granparan i gardyen zot zanfan, i gardyen zot fiy.
E sa fiy i gardyen son zanfan. Donk i annan 2 guardianship la. 2 diferan guardianship. Minors under the guardianship. Ki lot kestyon ki mon’n, malerezman mon’n bliy son bout premye kestyon, epi mon’n osi bliy-
MR SPEAKER
Onorab William.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Par R50mil, yes, Onorab William R50mil. Wi annefe i en kontradiksyon. Me sa R50mil i rezourd sa kontradiksyon. Akoz i dir ki ou napa drwa vann okenn propriyete en miner ler ou gardyen, okenn propriyete en ward ler ou en gardyen.
Amwen ki ou ganny permisyon Lakour. Sof ki si sa keksoz ki ou pe al vann, son valer i mwens ki R50mil ou kapab fer li, ou pa bezwen tay Ankour. Lakour ou bezwen al Ankour pou zis bann keksoz ki par lao R50mil.
E Onorab Esparon mon krwar ti’n demann en keksoz annan pou fer avek 391 ek 392. ‘’A minor is under the guardianship of the parents.’’ Savedir paran i toultan gardyen sa miner. E sa papa ki annan mazorite ek sa manman ki en miner, tou le de pou gardyen zot zanfan. Ki natirelman i miner. E sa ki 392 pe dir, se ki zis, zis gardyen, zis paran en miner ki kapab apwent en guardian par testaman, oubyen par – oubyen devan noter. Tou bann lezot ka, ou pou bezwen al Ankour.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Onorab Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair i annan en – parfwa ou rankontre bann, dan bann ka, kot ou ganny bann diskisyon avek bann dimoun, e zot eksplik ou bann ka kot zanfan i en miner, in ganny en zanfan.
E granparan i oule adopte zot pti zanfan. Me apre i annan bann konplikasyon oubyen bann eleman. Sa ki mon ti oule demann Onorab Georges, eski going forward dan Code la, eski nou pe klarifye sa ase? Oubyen eski nou pe les li la dan lenzirditan. Akoz malgre ki sa paran i guardian sa miner ki’n ganny sa zanfan, me esansyelman zot napa, kantite drwa ki zot annan lo zot pti zanfan?
Dan sa konteks la? Anvi ki se sa manman ki li ki guardian son zanfan. E efektivman se li ki annan drwa legal pou prezan apwent. Me selman nou’n dir lo konmansman ki en miner i napa drwa legal.
So eski ou kapab eksplik nou en pti pe, parfwa kekfwa i annan dimoun ki rankontre sa konfizyon. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab William.
HON WAVEN WILLIAM
Mr Speaker mon ti zis anvi ankor serten klarite lo sa pwen ki mon’n leve.
Me letan mon pe regarde, petet ou pa krwar nou devret azout dan 47, pou dir i annan sa leksepsyon? Akoz lafason ou a krwar ki in ganny ekrir, i still ou a krwar kree serten konfizyon.
Mon pa konnen si Onorab Chairman Bills Committee i vwar sa. Akoz anler ou pe dir enn, me anba, selman. I annan lezot item ki ou’n nonm serten seksyon.
Me selman sa enn ou pa pe nonmen, ki ou a krwar i still kree sa konfizyon pou mwan. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Wi mon konpran sa ki i pe dir, i Onorab pe envit nou poudir dan 1, ‘’subject to 452(2)(b). The guardian shall not have the right to sell the property of the minor without the permission of the Court.’’
Mon krwar, e sa set en tre bon sizesyon. Me mon pa vwar kot, akoz i pe mansyonn 447. O 457 (pardon.) Wi 457, wi 457. Yes, you see, you see Professor.
457(1)(a), ‘’no guardian shall, without authorization of the Court sell property.’’ Yet 452(2)(b), we said ‘’authorization is not required if the value of the property is less than 50thousand.’’
So the Honorable wants a ‘’subject to’’, somewhere so that there is no discrepancy. Mon krwar Profeser i dakor, mon vwar li pe nod. Mersi. Onorab Pillay. Wi that’s the way the chips fall.
En dimoun ki granmanman en miner, son zanfan li menm li i miner. I napa okenn menm iz lo zanfan sa zanfan ki miner. Akoz se manman son zanfan ki miner.
Ki li menm li i en miner ki annan drwa e kontrol lo propriyete son zanfan. Me i annan touzour parey nou’n vwar, posibilite ki si sa granmanman i vwar ki son zanfan ki en miner pa pe desarz son fonksyon byen, i pa pe ekip son zanfan, akoz i en miner, i kapab toultan al Ankour e demann Lakour apwent li sa granmanman konman en gardyen. E Lakour i kapab toultan fer sa. Lakour i kapab a nenport ki moman aras paran la gard zot zanfan.
Akoz pa tou paran ki gard zot zanfan byen. So a nenport ki moman, etandonnen ki the welfare in the best interest of the child ki i toultan enportan, Lakour i kapab aras e Lakour i fer tanzantan.
I apwent en lot dimoun konman gardyen. Akoz paran pa kapab dil avek zot zanfan.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr chair mon pe sey wrestle avek en lenkonsistans ki mon pe vwar.
Nou pe dir lo konmansman ki en miner i en dimoun ki anba 18an. E nou pe dir poudir en adilt i annan full legal capacity. Be prezan nou pe dir la, kot i konsern guardianship, en miner i annan legal capacity pou li act.
Kan in the first place nou’n dir poudir en miner i pa sipoze annan sa menm legal capacity ki en adilt. So sa ki mon pe klarifye, si dan bann sirkonstans kot sa miner pe akt.
Mon pa pe koz zis lo propriyete sa zanfan, mon pe koz osi lo. Akoz lefe ki nou pe koz lo guardianship, nou pe koz osi lo bann desizyon ki konsern sa zanfan. Eski sa miner i annan menm sa?
So mon ti oule konpran sa, whether there is en lenkonsistans oubyen se mwan mon lenterpretasyon personnel ki pe fer mon vwar en lenkonsistans dan sa ki egziste ozordi?
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Tre bon pwen Mr Chair. En miner napa legal capacity. Me en miner ki annan en zanfan i kapab vin gardyen sa zanfan. Alor fine, so far so good. Me eski i pou kapab li antan ki miner gardyen son zanfan?
Par egzanp fer en keksoz ki i bezwen legal capacity ki pou fer. Donk that’s the point ki i pe souleve. E i kler ki i pa pou kapab. Akoz i gardyen son zanfan subject to lefe ki li menm li i napa okenn legal capacity.
Donk i gardyen in name alone. E i pa pou annan legal capacity. Donk si son zanfan dizon i bezwen sibir en loperasyon, e en dimoun i bezwen sinyen pou otoriz sa loperasyon.
Antan ki en miner li, mon krwar pa ki i pou kapab. Malgre ki i gardyen son zanfan. Non i gardyen. Akoz anba, anba 435(1)(a) ‘’the following persons must not be guardians minders, except for their own child.’’ I en legal conundrum.
MR SPEAKER
Bon, eski nou pou dwell lo la, oubyen eski souzantandi ki se sa leksepsyon kot en miner i ganny en zanfan. Annou pran en fiy 16an i ganny en zanfan, son sel lobligasyon se i gardyen sa zanfan pou en serten extent.
Me i pa kapab pran okenn- Ou konpran? Okenn bann responsabilite legal. Ale Onorab Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair ou konnen. Parey, si i ti zis, si i ti zis par egzanp sa bann desizyon ki kapab pran, ti’n kapab ganny definir, ou konpran? I pa ti pou sitan konpleks. Me sa ki pe fer li konpleks se lefe ki li menm li i napa sa kapasite legal pou fer serten desizyon.
I pe ganny demande legalman pou fer desizyon, pou en lot dimoun ki napa kapasite legal pou fer desizyon. Prezan sa ki mwan mon, sa ki petet i kapab eksplik nou, se eski sa in sorti dan vye Code parey i ti ete?
E par lefe ki nou’n sanz en eleman dan vye Code. E sa eleman sete ki en minor i kapab contract marriage avek permisyon son paran. Si sa i le ka, then, nou pa pe dir retourn sa mwan – non.
Sa ki mon pe dir, se ki sa osi prezan nou bezwen re vizit li. As to the extent of ki kontrol en miner i annan anver son zanfan. Akoz annou par egzanp en zanfan ki go through teenage pregnancy e papa pa’n acknowledge sa zanfan.
So efektivman se sa miner ki the soul guardian of the child. Pou kantmenm i annan 15an, i pou 3an. Me si i annan en, en desizyon ki bezwen ganny fer vizavi sa zanfan, legalman lekel ki pou fer sa desizyon vizavi sa zanfan? Se sa ki mon ti kontan nou klarifye.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Si petet i annan en solisyon.
MR SPEAKER
Ok. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mon mazinen wi. Mon krwar i en legal conundrum ki nou bezwen rezourd.
Akoz si nou pa rezourd li la, se ki nou pe anvoy en problenm lo Zidisyer demen. E i pa nou rol fer sa. Akoz nou pa dir, dan 435(1), ‘’the following persons must not be guardians a minors including of their own child.’’
Ou pe anpes en miner vin gardyen. Donk ou pe fors en lot dimoun ganny apwente, pou vin gardyen sa miner ki en manman. Ou ki en papa, akoz i kapab ki en garson 17an ki’n fer ansent en fiy 16an.
E donk 391 ki dir, ‘’a minor is under the guardianship of then parents,’’ i ava apply, sof dan 435(1)(a). I en propozisyon pou rezourd sa problenm. Akoz i en problenm.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Eski nou dakor ek sa propozisyon? I en size ki ti osi ganny diskite dan sa Extended Bills Committee en. Yes Onorab Ramkalawan?
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Mon pe zis mazinen, si Onorab Georges pe dir dan 391, ‘’minor is under the guardianship of the parents except if the parents are minors.’’ Konmsi ou’n fini met sa?
You create an exception there, and then you add what you have just added. I am just making, mon pe- In 391, ok. You create the exception. Because normally a minor is under the guardianship of the parents. This is normal.
Except if the parents are minors. I mean the legal jargons zot ti ava soz. So that you create the exception already there. And then, of course in the other one there, 4 konbyen? 435(1)(a), you then have minors, full stop.
You beef out except of their own child. So that then, except, what you’ve created in 391 is then reaffirmed in 435. Which makes it clear that minors cannot be a guardian, ok.
If 391 is the problem. Then create the exception in 391. And then in 435 you make it clear that the minor cannot be a guardian. And this follows that in the case where, i mean, in this situation that Honourable Pillay pointed out; then if there are to be. Because the minor who’s got a child, the minor who’s got a child. Will be basically taking care of the child. Should there be any responsibilities, then a guardian has to be appointed.
And then the Court will appoint somebody who’s got the legal capacity to be the guardian of the child. For example, the child of the minor, has to travel. In order to apply for a passport you need somebody who is over 18 to sign the form.
You need the appointment of a guardian. And the court will appoint a guardian, so that the guardian can sign the, the passport form for both of them in fact, to be able to get a passport. I am just throwing things from the table, so that we can-.
MR SPEAKER
Onorab Lemiel.
HON SYLVANNE LEMIEL
Mersi Mr Chair. Non dan menm laliny ki Onorab Ramkalawan pe koz lo la, mon krwar i pou byen nou fer bann leksepsyon. Akoz mwan mon konn serten ka – en? Kot miner dezabilite, 2 dezabilite petet i fer ansent, garson dezabilite in fer ansent sa fiy dezabilite, i ankor anba laz. En piti in vini, en pti moman en 2enm i vini. 2enm i annan problenm lasante.
Ou konnen? Konmsi la sa manman sa fiy ki annan sa dezabilite avek sa 2 zanfan ki in gannyen, sa 2enm zanfan li osi i al ganny en lot problenm lasante li osi ki i bezwen travel aletranze.
Ou vwar i vin en sort of en pe dilenm, en gro problenm, ou konnen? So mon krwar i enportan kot petet nou annan bann leksepsyon konmsi ki ganny mete. Kot petet la osi, mon pa konnen mwan.
Manman osi kekfwa i annan de letan i kapab i annan ka al ekstrenm ki ou pou koz lo la, kot sa manman li menm ki pe take care of sa zanfan dezabilite ek son 2 zanfan, i pass away prezan li osi.
Prezan i reste sa lot granmanman. Sa osi konmsi nou bezwen sey regarde ki mannyer nou pou pran kont avek la realite ozordi la en. Mersi.
HON WAVEL RAMKALAWAN
Eski, i think we will really- I mean the direction, well the line that I am taking is in fact the more you reflect on, on real situations. The minor child, the minor who’s got a child will not even be able to sign for the child to have a surgical intervention.
Because she doesn’t have the mental capacity. So it is obvious that, that somebody else will have – an adult, will have to be, will have to be appointed guardian as a guardian. And most of the time.
I mean we have experience these things. And most of the time, it’s the grandmother who plays that role. So.
MR SPEAKER
Honourable Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Yes, Mr Chair. I think i can see the way it’s going.
I would like to suggest the following as possible amendments. I like 391, it’s a bold and clear statement. I would not like to, to dilute it. What i would like to suggest is, and that’s why it’s there, it’s a new one.
What i would like to suggest is maybe we break 391 into 1 and 2. A minor is under the guardianship of a parent (1). And then (2), sub Article (1) shall not apply to a minor who is a parent.
And then in 402, where no guardian is appointed to a minor by the parents of the child as a survivor of them, Add, ‘’or where the parents are unable to appoint the guardian.’’
The guardian shall be appointed by the Court. And that throws to the Court, through responsibility for appointing guardian to a minor. And then in 435(1)(a) we just say ‘minors’.
Because in (b) we say ‘’interdicted person who are unable to be guardians.’’ Now one thing that might resolves the problem.
MR SPEAKER
Ok. Thank you. Is that ok with the panel? Yes, alright. Honorable Georges. Guardian should stop here. The other one is a different section, or it follows?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Both Mr Chair. It follows. Because it’s about interdicted person who also need guardians. And it’s about how to interdict a person who is of age. But who has a physical or mental capacity. And then the responsibilities of the guardian to that person. And that goes fom 489 to 511.
MR SPEAKER
So we will continue.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
As you wish.
MR SPEAKER
We continue before we take a vote.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Or perhaps you should take a vote now. Up to, or do you want us to continue to the end? It doesn’t matter.
MR SPEAKER
Because the whole section, falls under the guardianship, no?
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Ok, let’s do it.
MR SPEAKER
Ok. We continue.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Continue. Thank you Mr Chair. 489 se lot kategori dimoun ki bezwen ganny en guardian. E sa se pa miner me bann dimoun ki of age. Me ki i ganny enterdi par Lakour.
E lenterdiksyon se ki zot vin asimile, konmsi zot en miner, e zot annan menm draw back. E zot bezwen ganny gardyen pou dil pou zot. So 489 en dimoun ki adilt. Me ki annan en kondisyon mantal oubyen fizik.
Oubyen okenn lezot kondisyon ki fer ki, i pa kapab manage son prop zentere. Oubyen son lobligasyon finansyel i kapab ganny enterdi. Nou apel sa interdicted dan, ankor enn fwa sa i sorti dan Code Civil Francais.
E osi en adilt ki Lakour i satisfe i bezwen ganny sipervize, pou son bann zafer finansye. Setadir ki si ou pa vey li i pou al Labank toulezour e i pou tir tou son larzan. I pou akoz i pa konpran sa ki i pe fer avek.
I kapab ganny met anba en supervision order. E sa i fer ki i pa kapab konpromet son larzan, i pa kapab borrow, i pa kapab ganny kapital, i pa kapab donn resi. I pa kapab mortgage son propriyete san lasistans en dimoun ki Lakour pou nonmen. Alor i annan 2 keksoz.
Enn se enterdiksyon, ban total. Lot se sipervizyon en ban parsyel. E pou ou kapab enterdi oubyen demann sipervizyon, ou bezwen al Ankour.
E sa se en fanmir sa dimoun ki pou ganny enterdi. Ki anmenn, oubyen sipervize ki anmenn sa case. Oubyen en, epou, vizavi son lot lepou, oubyen Attorney Zeneral.
E sa petisyon i ava briyevman set out bann facts. E sa dimoun ki ou pe al enterdi oubyen ou pe al rod sipervize, i pou bezwen vin respondent dan sa case. E sa case i ganny anmennen kont li.
E li i bezwen ganny, vin Ankour pou li defann sa keksoz ki ou pe demande. Sa pa kapab ganny fer deryer son ledo. Se pou sa rezon ki sa i ganny, ou bezwen fer li vin en parti dan sa case.
E pou li kapab ganny reprezante devan Lakour, e Lakour i bezwen fer sa desizyon devan li. E apre ki in ekout li, si i kapab eksprim son lopinyon.
MR SPEAKER
Nou kontinyen. Nou ava pran apre? Non nou ava pran apre.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
491; ler sa petisyon pa ganny anmennen par Attorney Zeneral, en kopi i bezwen ganny anvoye kot Attorney Zeneral. E Attorney Zeneral i pou, i pou bezwen vin dan sa case, pou li pran par, pou fer sir tou keksoz i ganny fer o kler.
E sa dimoun ki pe, ki ou pe demande pou ganny en perdi oubyen sipervize, i kapab fayle en defans dan sa case. E dan serten ka ou vwar, ki sa in arive. Okenn moman avan zizman, pandan ki sa case in ganny fayle, Lakour i kapab demann lopinyon sa dimoun ki pe demande.
Enteroz sa dimoun ki pe al ganny enterdi. Oubyen fer li ganny enteroze par okenn dimoun ki Lakour i apwente. Oubyen fer li ganny egzaminen par dokter e oubyen okenn lezot dimoun pou fer sir, eski sa lord ki pe ganny demande i devret ganny fer?
Lakour pa bezwen swiv okenn sa bann lopinyon. Akoz Lakour i pran son desizyon li menm. E okenn zizman ki Lakour i fer, pa pou ganny anile oubyen rann envalid akoz in annan en fot, oubyen en lomisyon, oubyen iregilarite dan sa prosedir.
Unless ki sa omisyon, sa lerer, sa iregilarite i enzis. E i fer ki lazistis pa ganny fer. Okenn, tou sa bann keksoz pa ganny fer dan Lakour ouver an piblik. I ganny fer in Chambers dan Biro Ziz.
Akoz i pa en keksoz ki piblik, e piblik napa okenn lentere konnen sa ki pe arive. Apre le moman ki en petisyon i ganny fayle. Lakour i kapab apwent en gardyen provizyonnel – provizwar en attendant ki i ekout sa case. Zis pou anpes sa dimoun fer sa bann keksoz ki ou pe al rode pou anpes li fer.
Akoz parey zot konnen, i pran plizyer semenn pou en case pas Ankour e Lakour i kapab apwent en dimoun provizwarman pou fer sir ki lentere sa dimoun ki pe ganny enterdi, i pa al kont son prop lentere dan sa peryod letan.
E osi to ki en gardyen i ganny apwente pli tar, sa gardyen provizwar i tonbe. Annan de fwa i menm gardyen ki pou ganny apwente provizwarman en pe pli tar.
Ankor enn fwa, sa gardyen i bezwen rann kont. Sa gardyen provizwar i a bezwen rann kont avek sa gardyen formel ler in ganny apwente. I annan serten seksyon Code prosedir Civil ki bezwen ganny aplike.
E sa se bann seksyon lo ki mannyer ou pou servi bann dokiman egzakteman parey ou fer avek en plent normal. Apre ki Ziz in ekout levidans, okenn lezot levidans ki i zize i bon, i ava fer son desizyon.
Si Lakour pa fer en lord lenterdiksyon, i kapab still fer en lord sipervizyon ki sa 2enm kalite lord ki kapab fer enterdiksyon. E parey mon dir, i total, ou napa drwa fer nanryen.
Sipervizyon ou ganny drwa fer, me anba sipervizyon. Donk i kapab dir, mon pa satisfe ki mon devret enterdi. Me mon satisfe ki i bezwen annan sipervizyon.
E ankor enn fwa ler i annan en lapel ki ganny fer, Lakour D’Apel i kapab egzamin sa dimoun ankor enn fwa pou deside si sa premye lord ti bon. E sa lord lenterdiksyon, oubyen sipervizyon i bezwen ganny servi imedyatman lo sa dimoun ki’n demande, lo sa dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi oubyen met anba sipervizyon.
E lo en gardyen ler en gardyen in ganny apwente. E ankor enn fwa egzakteman parey avan, gardyen i bezwen fer en lenvanter propriyete sa dimoun. E donn notis sa bann dimoun swivan. Registrar General, akoz sa dimoun kekfwa i annan later.
Registrar of companies, akoz sa dimoun kekfwa i annan en company. Okenn Manager Labank kot sa dimoun i annan en kont oubyen okenn lezot dimoun ki apropriye. En lord fer anba Lartik, anba sa Lartik 499 i pran lefe zour ki zizman i ganny fer.
E okenn akt ki ganny fer apre sa dat par sa dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi, oubyen met anba sipervizyon, i null by operation of Law. De plein droit. Savedir ou pa bezwen al Ankour pou ou al dir in fer sa, alor nullify it. I null. Boom.
Ou pa bezwen fer okenn keksoz ki null by operation of Law. Prezan bann keksoz ki sa dimoun in fer avan lord enterdiksyon, i kapab ganny anile.
I pa null by operation of Law, me i kapab ganny anile par Lakour, si i ti kler a sa dimoun, avek lekel sa dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi, in fer sa, sa keksoz, tir sa larzan, oubyen proteksyon later, oubyen whatever. Si i ti kler ki sa dimoun ki ti’n ganny enterdi a sa moman, pa ti byen dan son latet. Oubyen pa ti konpran sa ki i ti pe fer. Donk ou kapab go back e anil okenn keksoz ki’n ganny fer avan en lord enterdiksyon. E sa set en keksoz enportan.
Akoz parfwa sa dimoun i fer en keksoz avan ki i ganny enterdi. Apre lanmor en dimoun, okenn keksoz ki sa dimoun in fer, sa dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi i fer. Pa pou ganny challenge, ou dir ki i pa ti, i ti fou. Unless, unless ki i annan laprev ki i ti fou ler i ti fer sa keksoz. Sa se pou prezerv lentegrite en dimoun apre son lanmor.
Ou pa kapab vin dir be wi i ti fou, ler i pa la pou li defann son lekor. Lakour i kapab apwent en gardyen pou en dimoun ki ganny enterdi oubyen sizer a en supervision order. Sa se pou, akoz in vin parey en miner.
E sa lapwentman i kapab ganny fer dan sa lord lenterdiksyon ou sipervizyon oubyen pli tar. En dimoun ki’n ganny apwente gardyen, i ava, i kapab resign an donn-an 6 mwan notis avek Lakour.
E Lakour osi i kapab a nenport ki moman, revok son lapwentman. Akoz kekfwa i pa pe travay byen. E Lakour i kapab apwent en gardyen tanporer. Si son gardyen permanan i absan pou en peryod letan e i al deor aletranze.
Sa okenn, okenn benefis ki larzan sa dimoun ki ganny enterdikte, okenn income ki son larzan i prodwi. I ava ganny servi pou ed li, pou asiste li pou li vin byen, pou amelyor son kondisyon.
E Lakour i kapab deside si sa dimoun enterdikte pou ganny trete kot li si i neseser. Oubyen si i pou al dan en lazil, oubyen dan en lopital. E sa lenterdiksyon i ava arete ler sa dimoun i byen.
Ler bann fakter ki ti fer li ganny enterdi nepli egziste. E sa i ava ganny fer selman si bann lareg i ganny respekte pou sa fer.
E sa dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi i ava repran tou son bann drwa legal apre ki zizman ki, ki’n enterdi li i ganny leve, in ganny anile. Vwala Mr Chair. Mersi bokou.
MR SPEAKER
Bon mon, mon sizere nou ava pran detrwa entervansyon, akoz sa i pou anmenn nou lafen Book I.
Apre nou ava fer, nou ava fer en sel adjournment, nou ava pran next week. Sa i mon sizesyon. Nou fini la, nou break e an menm tan nou adjourn pou next week.
Si zot dakor, nou ava kontinyen, nou pa ava pran break, ok? Onorab Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair enn bann keksoz ki mon’n tande oubyen ki mon’n come across, se lefe ki i annan enterdiksyon i parfwa ganny servi pou deny swa en manm lafanmir, swa dan en lot fason en lot dimoun akse a propriyete.
Prezan sa ki mon pe demann Onorab Georges. Eski dan sa ki nou’n fer nou’n zis pran sa ki ti dan vye Code, nou’n vin met li la. E zot pa’n pran konsiderasyon bann sityasyon ki’n arise, ki zot bann dimoun, zot profesyon legal, zot in come across?
Kot i menm annan ka kot dimoun in deklar zot lekor, in ganny enterdikte apre ki zot in siny en later away. Prezan sa later, sa tranzaksyon in vin null. So ki proteksyon i annan par egzanp dan sa ka?
Eski, eski i sitan fasil pou en dimoun servi enterdiksyon pou do away ek en desizyon ki probableman en lot in pran. Ki i santi poudir la aprezan i pou afekte zot, alors zot bezwen rod en fason around sa desizyon.
Sa i enn bann konsern ki ou souvandfwa ou tande, ou ganny eksprimen. E dezyenmman nou, vi ki Minis Lasante i la, i enportan pou li reflekte lo la. Lefe ki ou annan the Mental Health Bill ki pe vini, eski zot in fer sir ki zot in armoniz prezan lafason ki en dimoun pou ganny enterdikte anba Mental Health Bill avek sa ki, sa ki Civil Code pe demande. Akoz la ou annan konotasyon legal, pou bann aksyon ki bezwen ganny pran lo behalf sa dimoun anba Mental Health Bill ki’n ganny enterdikte.
So petet Minis ti a kapab reponn nou si zot in armoniz li e fer sir ki bann keksoz i tonm parey. Mersi Mr.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Sandy Arissol.
HON SANDY ARISSOL
Mersi Mr Chair. Bonn apre midi tou dimoun. Mr chair mon osi mon ti annan kestyon an relasyon avek dan 489.
Konmsi lekel ki definir poudir sa dimoun aze i annan en problenm mantal, oubyen i annan en problenm fizik. Alor i pa kapab al tir son larzan oubyen i pa kapab fer son keksoz li menm. So, akoz sa ki nou pe koz, sa seksyon nou pe koz lo la i aplik pou nou bann dimoun aze laba deor.
E ozordi nou annan en kantite ki sibir labi. E letan nou pe koz labi, parfwa se, ou konnen letan en dimoun i ariv alaz, enn son msye oubyen madanm i mor.
Prezan si i annan en zanfan, se sa zanfan ki otomatikman i pran responsabilite sa paran. Akoz i dir ek ou poudir sa mwan manman, alor son kart idantite mwan ki responsab. Mwan ki sipoze take care avek li.
Me parfwa, ozordi dan Sesel i en ka kot se bann zanfan zot menm, letan ou fer letour. Se bann zanfan zot menm ki’n aksepte pou pran responsabilite sa manman. E in pran son kart idantite in kit ek li. Be se sa zanfan menm ki pa pe okip sa manman.
I pe pran son larzan, i pe al zwe Amusement Center. I pe pran son larzan i pe voyaze lo la. E sa manman li i pa pe ganny nanryen li. I ganny neglize, i pa pe ganny personn pou pran swen avek li, pou donn li en bon repa nitritif.
Personn pou sey anmenn li al, ava anmenn li en zour lanmes, pou tir li en kou dan lakaz, pou fer li fer en pti vire, en legzersis fizik ki nou pe koz lo la.
E ozordi bann labi i retourn avek sa menm zanfan ki li in aksepte pou pran sa responsabilite sa dimoun aze ki nou pe koz lo la, pou li vin the guardianship of sa dimoun.
Be prezan mon ti a kontan demann Onorab Georges, be kote ki en lot manm fanmir i antre pou li vin devan Lakour pou dir get sa, mon’n vizit mon granmanman, oubyen mon’n vizit mon tantin. Be son zanfan pe fer li mizer, nou’n tir portre nou annan laprev.
I pa pe manze, i pe dormi ater, son lakaz i sal, son lenz pe pouri deryer laport. Parske personn pa pe okip li.
Kote ki en lot dimoun i antre pou dir apartir la, mon ti a kontan mwan sa konman kouzen, oubyen mwan konman sa vwazen, oubyen mwan ki annan lo bann fanmir, mon ti a kontan vin guardianship sa vye dimoun aze.
Parske mwan mon’n fatige vwar sa kalite soufrans ki pe fer fas avek. Parske i reste akote mwan, se mwan ki donn li sa ver delo toulezour, mwan ki al tenny son lalimyer aswar pou fer sir son laport i frenmen.
Mwan ki pe zet en kou dey lo li. Konmsi mon ti a kontan en pti pe leksplikasyon. Akoz letan nou koz guardianship, nou toultan asosye avek sa dimoun ki en pe pli pre, ki i normal.
Me letan sa ki pli pre li menm li ki abiz sa ki dan, ki dan bezwen, i annan, kote rekour i antre an relasyon avek lezot manm fanmir, oubyen lezot dimoun ki vwar sa sityasyon la ki nou pe koz lo la? Mersi bokou Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Mon ava dil avek Onorab
Arissol avan. Sa ki nou fek vwar la, se selman ler en dimoun in ariv a en sityasyon kot i pa kapab manage son tranzaksyon finansye.
Pa neseserman se son the own interest or properly fulfil family obligations. Annefe nou’n elarzi sa. Lontan anba Code aktyel, se selman bann dimoun ki ti habitually feeble-minded oubyen spendthrift, oubyen bann dimoun ki parey i annan.
E nou konnen enn de fwa bann dimoun ki ler in ariv, ler in ariv sekirite, en zenn madanm i ariv o bor zot e i anmenn zot Labank i fer zot tir tou zot larzan e li i al avek. E sa nou’n vwar bokou. Se sa bann kategori dimoun ki sa pe rod prezerve.
Me Onorab Arissol i annan parfetman rezon. Mannyer 489 in ganny drafte, se okenn, okenn dimoun ki merit ganny looked after dan en fason byen. I pa zis son byen oubyen son finans, oubyen son propriyete.
E dan sa ka si en dimoun pa’n ganny enterdi, e sa manm fanmir ki pe swadizan look after li i pa fer li byen. Okenn lezot manm fanmir Onorab i kapab al Ankour e demann enterdiksyon sa dimoun, e demann li ganny apwente konman gardyen.
Donk se koumsa ki ou pran responsabilite avek sa dimoun ki pa pe look after sa vye dimoun. E si sa vye dimoun in deza ganny enterdikte ek son gardyen pa pe pran swen avek li dan lafason ki ou’n dekrir.
La prezan anba Lartik 506(2), sa nouvo manm fanmir oubyen sa lot vwazen, oubyen sa lot dimoun ki enterese, i kapab al Ankour. Demann revoke lapwentman sa premye dimoun konman gardyen e apwent li akoz li i kapab fer en meyer, en meyer travay.
Donk se presizeman pou sa bann sityasyon ki Onorab Arissol in mansyonnen. Ki sa bann lartik, anba Code i prevwar pou fer sir ki tou dimoun i ava ganny pran swen avek dan en bon fason. Onorab Pillay pe demann what about self-interdiction?
Pou, ou’n antre dan en kontra, ou’n vann en later whatever. Apre ou mazinen ki ou pa ti’n devret, alor ou tay Ankour, ou fer ou lekor ganny enterdi. Apre ou dir be gete, cancel sa lavant akoz i pa ti’n devret, i pa ti’n devret arive.
Not possible. Akoz? Akoz i annan deza sifizaman remed anba lartik 1110, 1110, 1111, 1112. Kot si ou fer en keksoz by mistake, oubyen anba duress. Oubyen par lezyon. En dimoun i pran lavantaz lo ou, ou’n vann en later pou mwens ki lanmwatye son valer.
Dan tou sa bann ka, san ki ou ganny enterdi, ou kapab kas sa Kontra e annul i retourn to the status quo ante. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Onorab Pillay.
HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY
Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon oule ki Onorab Georges i reflect lo sa sityasyon ki mon’n prezant devan li.
Kan i ariv osi leka kot ou annan en manm fanmir. Ou annan en fanmir, kot en manm fanmir osi i stand to inherit part of the family estate.
E lezot manm fanmir petet li i en pti pe pli, mon pa pou servi en term simpleminded, me en pti pe pli, tou dimoun i krwar poudir en dimoun ki devret ganny enterdikte san ki i annan, in deza annan en assessment profesyonnel.
Ou vwar i annan serten ka kot en dimoun i ganny interdicted. Mon konsern mwan se ki, si nou pe pran sa ki ti dan vye Code e anmenn li la, san ki i annan en safe guard.
Or can there be a safeguard ki nou kapab mete la pou fer ki sa dimoun ki trouv li dan sa sityasyon ki’n marye, ki oule zwir son part of son asset. Me i vwar li en lot dimoun ki bezwen vin son guardian.
Eski ki mannyer nou kapab fer pou asire ki the threshold for establishing or for an interdiction has got to be in to a level where, i kler poudir sa dimoun pa kapab fer sa bann desizyon.
Otherwise then, akoz Lakour once in fini, in fini ek sa sityasyon li. Sa dimoun i ale, unless sa dimoun i kapab retourn kot Lakour.
So ki mannyer nou kapab asire, or eski i annan, nou annan reasiran poudir sa i egziste ozordi? Mersi Mr Chair.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab. Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Lakour is the answer, Lakour i fer absoliman sir i ekout tou levidans, i rod rapor medikal, i rod rapor sosyal avan ki i pronons en lenterdiksyon. Oubyen avan ki i pronons en leve sa lenterdiksyon.
Donk mon krwar the, se Lakour ki annan sa oversight rule. E se Lakour ki fer sa. Si prezan Lakour in fini apwente apre sityasyon i sanze, sa dimoun i get worse, oubyen i get better. En dimoun enterese i bezwen vin Ankour pou notifye Mr Lakour.
E annan de fwa si sa prop dimoun ki’n ganny enterdi li menm. Mwan mon konn case kot sa bann prop dimoun in vin Ankour zot menm. Zot in pran Avoka, zot in al Ankour.
E zot in dir be, mon’n byen mwan. Sa dimoun ki’n ganny apwente pa pe pran mon zentere. O kontrer i pe vol mon larzan, i pe fer isi, i pe fer laba. Alor mon anvi ganny retire, mon anvi repran mon byen. Donk i annan, i annan sa sofgard.
I pa oule dir ki detanzantan, parey dan tou ka, Lakour i enfayib. Lakour pa enfayib. E dan serten ka Onorab Esparon in mansyonnen yer ki nou pa pou kapab koz lo la. Akoz i ankor devan Lakour.
Kot in annan sa problenm ant 2, ant 2 dimoun avek sa pov dimoun ki’n enterdi li dan milye. Kot i ti’n marye, epi Lakour in deside ki sa maryaz pa ti byen. Me nou bezwen trust Lakour.
E nou bezwen trust ki Lakour dan son kapasite pou fer en keksoz ki pli byen posib dan bann fact, dan bann fe ki devan li.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Minister.
MINISTER JEAN-PAUL ADAM
Mersi bokou Mr Chairman e mersi bokou bann Onorab. E bonn apre midi tou dimoun ankor enn fwa. An se ki konsern kestyon lafason ki sa Code Civil i enterakte avek nouvo Lalwa lo Lasante mantal.
Mannyer mon konpran, letan travay lo Code Civil in ganny fer, e sa seksyon partikilye, i pa’n, i pa’n ganny neseserman remet azour. Savedir in reste parey.
Me baze lo mon konversasyon ki mon’n annan avek bann konsey o bor mwan, i pa pou forseman annan en dezakor. Akoz Lalwa lo Lasante Mantal ki nou pe anmenn devan i adres sirtou drwa bann dimoun ki ganny afekte avek bann problenm lasante mantal.
Bann metodolozi pou asire ki zot tretman i respekte zot drwa imen. E osi bann lafason ki en dimoun i ganny dyagnoze avek en maladi, oubyen avek en problenm konsernan son konpetans e son fakilte mantal.
Alor an prensip, akoz si ou pe regard Code Civil lafason ki in ganny drafte, la i pe koz ou, letan en dimoun in fini ganny dyagnoze. E se pa Lakour ki pou deside si en dimoun i annan sa konpetans mantal oubyen non.
Se bann profesyonnel medikal. E sa pou ganny determinen, sa bann meteolozi i ganny determinen dan sa nouvo Lalwa lo Lasante Mantal ki nou pe vin avek.
Alor mon larepons, eskiz mwan mon’n en pe long. Me lafason an zeneral ki mon pe regard li ozordi, se ki napa en dezakor ant sa ki dan Code Civil ki prezante devan nou e avek sa nouvo Lalwa lo Lasante Mantal ki mon espere nou kapab pran pli tar dan sa sesyon avan lafen lannen.
Me nou ava fer en travay en pti pe pli an detay avek Biro Attorney zeneral pou nou kapab konfirm sa avan ki lafen tou bann travay i ganny fer. Me mon krwar ki baze, mon’n rod sa Lezislasyon i devan mwan la.
Letan mon’n regard li, mon’n regard Code Civil, mon pa krwar i neseserman annan en konfli. Mersi Mr Speaker e mersi bann Manm Onorab.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Minis. Bon napa ankor lezot entervansyon, nou pare pou pran en desizyon lo seksyon guardianship. Wi sum-up. Mr Pool.
SENIOR LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON MR VICTOR POOL
En pti leklersisman avek Mr Georges. Nou remarke ki dan ou original Code, current Code sorry. I fer mansion avek zis bann laspe mantal.
Feeble-minded, insane, lunatic. Be la nou’n entrodwi en konsep physical tou. Eski i ok? Ler nou pe interdiction en dimoun selman si i pa mobil par egzanp? Sa ki nou pe sey anmennen la?
MR SPEAKER
Onorab Georges.
HON BERNARD GEORGES
Mersi Mr Chair. Annefe Mr Pool i annan parfetman rezon. Code aktyel i koz lo en kapasite mantal. E ‘’inability to look after your own affairs.’’ Basically, akoz ou feeble minded, ou kekfwa ou annan en problenm mantal.
E i en lord prezerv propriyete, e non pa neseserman ou byennet. Sa ki nou’n fer, nou’n elarzi li pou pran konsiderasyon, non selman sa, me osi okenn enkapasite fizik ki, ki fer ki ou pou bezwen ganny en gardyen. Akoz ou pa pou kapab deplase dizon bann keksoz koumsa. Oubyen menm enkapasite pou ou take care of yourself dan en fason normal. Kot ou pou bezwen en gardyen. Pa en homecarer.
Akoz la egzakteman parey ler i annan zanfan, ou annan, sa dimoun ki annan custody, apre ou annan sa dimoun ki guardian. Sa dimoun ki annan custody i regard byennet sa zanfan, sa enn ki guardian i regard bann laspe legal sa zanfan.
Menm zafer isi, kot i pa zis son guardianship as a whole. Me i osi son custody, si mon kapab dir koumsa, son byennet toulezour. I en sanzman ki nou’n fer dan sa direksyon selman Mr Pool.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi Onorab Georges. Mr Pool ou satisfe. Professor you want to add anything before we take a decision? Non. Bon nou ava pran en desizyon lo guardianship parey nou, i tonm part of the schedule anba Book I. Lartik 391 ziska Lartik 511 as amended.
Mon a demann tou Manm ki an faver? Full House ok. Okenn Manm ki kont? Madanm Clerk.
MADAM CLERK
Mr Chair 23 Manm an faver e personn kont. Mersi.
MR SPEAKER
Mersi. Savedir Lartik 391 ziska 511 guardianship part of schedule anba Book I in ganny aprouve.
E la nou’n fini osi tou avek Book I. Mon krwar i en bon moman osi tou ki nou a kapab aret nou travay pou sa semenn. Mon ava demann Sarge pou move Mace. Pou nou rekonstitye to Committee of a whole House.
Bon, pou petet osi mon ava profite, mon krwar mon ava eskiz, remersi Minis Adam. I would like to thank the Minister, Professor Angelo and Mr Pool and Mr Vidot. And at this point, I would excuse you to, you will be able to leave the House.
And we will do some housekeeping work before we adjourn. Bon, parey nou’n deside yer, nou pou pran nou travay Mardi. Me anvi ki Mardi mon pou kot Lakour Konstitisyonnel 9er bomaten.
Mon pe zis dir ki nou ava sanz lord travay lo Order Paper. Nou ava kontinyen avek Referendum Bill bomaten. Ki’n deza konmanse. E Deputy Speaker in deza konmans sa travay. I a fini sa travay.
E konman nou a fini kot Lakour, pandan lazournen nou ava pran, nou ava pran lot Bill ki en Bill, ki nou ava konmans li de nouvo. Yes Onorab Ferrari.
HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI
Mr Speaker mon ti, mon’n fini verifye actually avek Sekretarya, ki dan ABC mon ti demande ki the first item is the Private Members Bill. E mon ti fer en not avek Madam Brigitte pou not, pou mete dan rezimen nou rankont that it would be the first sa.
E mon’n ganny konfirmen poudir this is exactly what happened. So mon ava, avek respe mon ti a kontan ki nou dispose of sa an premye. E dan sans ki nou kapab donn son letan ki merite the Referendum Bill.
Problenm se ki, vi ki i annan en irzans pou nou rankontre en deadline lo Private Members Bill, nou riske retrouv nou dan en fason pou nou, pou nou expedite Referendum Bill, tir sa dan nou semen, met li laba, to go on to, on to the Private Members Bill.
And we will not be doing justice. So vreman mon ti a apresye si ou rekonsider sa desizyon. E ki nou move parey nou ti’n agree dan ABC, avek respe Mr Speaker.
MR SPEAKER
Bon mwan, mon problenm se mon pa pou kapab dan 2 landrwa an menm tan. Ok, i annan en Bill ki Deputy Speaker in konmans dil avek, mon ti pe panse i a fini sa Bill, mwan mon a retournen mon a pran enn de nouvo.
Me si i zot, i zot swe, then zot a kapab konmans avek sa Bill pou amann, pou sa lamannman lo Konstitisyon premye. E mwan mon ava al kot Lakour. E Deputy Speaker i ava Chair, ok?
I pou bezwen Chair tou lede. Akoz, apre i ava kontinyen avek Referendum Bill. Ok, si sa, si sa i zot swe, savedir Mardi pou sa 2 Bills Deputy Speaker i ava Chair. Ok? Yes Onorab De Commarmond.
HON CHARLES DE COMMARMOND
Mersi Mr Speaker. Bonn apre midi Mr Speaker. Bonn apre midi tou dimoun. Mr Speaker konmsi sa ki ou’n deside prezan la ou bezwen sanz li?
MR SPEAKER
Non, non, non, non, non. Mon pa ti ankor fer –
HON CHARLES DE COMMARMOND
Aprezan, apre sa Bill ou pou-
MR SPEAKER
Non, non, non. Onorab zis en pti moman. Mon pa ti ankor fer. Nou pe rod the way forward pou Mardi. Akoz mon’n dir poudir mon ti a kontan ki mon ti ava la pou sa nouvo Bill – PNB.
Me si zot anvi semen dezir House i anvi pran li boner, mon pa kapab dan 2 landrwa an menm tan, ok? So mwan mon ava al kot Lakour, Deputy Speaker i ava pran Chair e business will continue.
HON CHARLES DE COMMARMOND
Savedir nou pe dir, apre sa Bill Referendum Bill i vini.
MR SPEAKER
Wi, sa zot ava pran sa amannman, Konstitisyon, sa PNB apre zot ava fini avek Referendum Bill. Ok. Me lentansyon se nou fini tou lede Mardi, ok?
E Merkredi, Zedi nou a kapab retourn lo Civil Code, dakor? Alright. So nou ava adjourn e Lasanble i repran son travay Mardi le 17 9er bomaten.
(ADJOURNMENT)